TheDevicer, It's one of those things where the upsides outweigh the downsides even if both are minimal. It usually goes like this:

• Is Green Sun's Zenith good in your deck?

"Yes."

• Do you want 1 mana ramp?

"Oh hell yeah! I need to get my commander down a turn early."

• Would you rather not flood your spell slots with cards that don't generate card advantage?

"Well... I do have 10 ramp spells already..."

• Can you afford to have one tap-land that's vulnerable to removal?

"Probably?"

• You should probably have Dryad Arbor.

"Uhh, I guess so..."

The reason it's good is just that making GSZ double as a Llanowar Elves is good enough to include in most decks that wanted GSZ, whether or not you have that much else built around it. And even if you don't get GSZ, having one land be a tap land isn't the end of the world. It's the same reason people will sometimes run Bojuka Bog.

That said, it's not an auto-include by any means. If it's not helping out enough then there's probably something better that could go in it's spot. Some decks it really shines in though. Like my Edric list where I need the T1 ramp, and having a 1/1 that I can attack with later is just gravy.

Gates88, You should link cards when you think people might not be familiar with them. It saves people time looking things up. You can do so like this:

[[Nomads En-Kor]]

And while that combo is neat in that Grand Abolisher would stop your opponent's interaction, putting in 4 creatures that are totally useless outside of your combo (Nomads en-Kor, Cephalid Illusionist, Angel of Glory's Rise, and Hapless Researcher) is a bit of a problem for something that's supposed to be the "best Protean Hulk pile available." Part of what makes a lot of the top EDH combos "the best" is that the cards in them are very interchangeable and function in a bunch of other combos as well. Also, what happens if you draw one of those creatures and can't cast it?

Dryad Arbor is also unnecessary in that combo, as you can just get a random dork for your sixth cmc for Hulk.

@sonnet666 - See I'm not convinced the GSZ argument is good enough in a post-Vancouver Mulligan world. The ETB tapped + dies to deluge are notable drawbacks. Keeping openers with Arbors is often impossible. The flipside is being able to GSZ when that's in the opener. I also don't know if it's always worth shuffling away one of the better tutors in your deck just for the sake of speed if your opener looks a certain way. It might actually be correct to not T1 Zenith for the arbor and it's almost certainly a good idea to hold off on doing so past T3 since you're likely to need to get utility, advantage, pieces, or removal with it.

We're talking about small percentages here though. I don't think it's awful to go either way.

a friend of mine is attempting to create an esper blink deck. He's looking at Ravos, Soultender + Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker for the commander slot. Would there be a better commander for this strategy out there and/or an example deck amongst this awesome list I could point him to?

I mean, just play Brago? Aside from that, there's Merieke Ri Berit. Blinking her is pretty good. If you want a toolbox general that can get you stuff on command, even good blink targets, there's Zur the Enchanter.

TheDevicer I use GSZ + Arbor in Yisan. It's less about viewing it as with a downside and more about looking at a GSZ in my opener as a Llanowar Elves. Normally GSZ in your opener is useless for quite a few turns as you accrue the resources to play it for something meaningful. (You won't want to play it on T2 because that's when you are shooting to play Yisan, etc) However, by simply dropping a forest and adding an Arbor my GSZ is now Llanowar elves #2.

Now, yes, you do sometimes have awkward Arbor openers but those are rare enough that I've never really had to worry about it. If it's in my opener I have enough ramp that I can usually spare an etb tapped land (what arbor becomes) along the way.

Thanks TheDevicer :)

is Burgeoning played a lot in cEDH? Or Exploration for that matter

Athraithe Yisan plays them

Athraithe, Exploration is played a lot in decks that want to ramp turn 1 or decks that have a lot of draw power or a land high land count. Burgeoning is played less often because not getting to play things with the lands you drop until your next turn is a downside, but it still has a place in certain decks.

sonnet666 - First of all, I know how to format. Don't be Condescending. Just because I don't post here often doesn't mean I'm new to Tappedout or this thread. I just don't post much because there's only so many ways you can say "No, your pet deck should not be moved up a tier just because you beat a tier 1 deck one time."

Second, I really don't care if people don't know what cards are. Most of the time cards are referred to by nickname (Bob, Mike, Cancer, etc.), so I don't see the big deal in not linking cards if someone doesn't know offhand what the card is or does. You have to give me some credit though, at least I didn't just call the combo "Breakfast".

Third, you're sort of correct in that it wasn't the best pile available when I posted it (I never said it was THE best to begin with, only one of the best, but whatever). As merrowMania pointed out, I made a Miscalculation and thought that Abolisher+Nomads+Cephalid was 6 mana. Whoops. However, this leads to an even stronger pile of Abolisher+Nomads+Cephalid+Hapless Researcher+Dryad Arbor. This is a much better pile since after milling yourself you can just Reanimate Lab Maniac directly, which Negates the need for Angel. You would probably run angel in that deck anyway so you could go Buried Alive for Hermit Druid, Lab Man, and Angel, but that's besides the point. I'm glad that you at least recognized that the key to the pile is Grand Abolisher. Being able to prevent interaction is a core component of any combo, and Abolisher beats out everything when it comes to preventing interaction. This is also a combo that can fit very easily into a Hermit Druid shell since many hermit druid decks run a similar win condition anyway.

Your final point is essentially that combo components are useless outside of a combo, and I don't know what to say to that. The Circular Logic is so severe here that I'm Stunned and I don't really know how to Contradict it. It's like saying that The Chain Veil is useless outside of combo, so you shouldn't run it in Teferi. As far as drawing a combo piece goes, you can cast spells from your hand if you have the mana to play them. In fact, for non-Yidris, non-Food Chain decks, over 95% of all spells are cast from the hand. There are a lot of other criticisms of the pile you could have brought up - you can't use it to win on your opponent's end step, it folds to an unanswered Cursed Totem, Rest In Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, etc. - but instead you brought up the weakest one.

I have to agree a bit about the whole drawing combo pieces.

I mean shit, outside of the combo what does Halimar Excavator do? Yet Tazri is still Tier 1.... (same for Hagra Diabolist, though Kalastria Healer does allow you to gain some life here and there so it's not the worst outside the combo.)

Let's not get confrontational. I think we're all trying to add to the conversation about cEDH.

Anyway, I think putting cards in a deck that only serve combo-purposes isn't ideal but doing so is perfectly justifiable when the combo is streamlined, low CMC, easy to fetch, etc. Think about all of the different cards that go into hermit druid and boonweaver lists. Some of those pieces are vital to the combo but don't necessarily do all that much outside of the combo. Still, they're ok just because of how damn good those combos are.

Meanwhile, something like Power Artifact+Grim Monolith is not particularly great when you can achieve infinite colorless using Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth instead. In lists where tutoring enchantments is hard, Power Artifact is a terrible card. It has next to no utility outside of the combo, is damn hard to fetch, and has a replacement readily available.

There's no circular logic going on here. Think of the above Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth combo I mentioned. I love the fact that I can use Sensei's Divining Top as an optional part of that combo to draw my deck. I can even sink in a bunch of mana just into Sensei's Divining Top+Rings of Brighthearth to inefficiently draw cards at sorcery speed if I need to. The fact of the matter is that you're not always comboing out and it's generally pretty awesome just to throw the top out and have it accumulate value for you. Sure, you're not happy to expose Rings of Brighthearth on the table, but sometimes you're left in a situation where the players have checked each other and you need to make some moves.

In these moments, it really pays to have combo pieces that do things outside of the combo. Hell, just the fact that you can throw that Dryad Arbor to Food Chain is awesome and that was pointed out in a completely unrelated post just days ago.

The fact of the matter is that if you can have a card fill two functions instead of just one and suffer no repercussions, you'll take the two functions any day.

I believe Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is mis-placed.

Yes, he's awful if you build him as a Mill deck.

Thing is, he's the wincon for an infinite storm-count deck that is immune to effects like Leyline of Sanctity.

I think the point is that you have Circu, Dimir Lobotomist in play and then you cast a ton of spells and exile everyone's library. Since it doesn't target players you get around Leyline.

Some ways to make this work that immediately come to mind: Any Paradox Engine combos that cast a bunch of spells, Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal etc.

Aight. M8....how high are you? I can understand some mistakes, just off difference of opinion, but for real, Arcum Dagsson is tier 1. Hell he should be tier 0, seeing as he is actually the boogeyman of commander.

He is the only commander I have played against that can literally fend off 3 other players simultaneously, while they were targeting only him, and not caring about anyone else. I had a Progenitor Mimic targeting Trygon Predator and there was another player that was countering or killing arcum so he couldnt come out. And it wasn't playing against bad decks either, I was playing a tier 1.5 maelstrom wanderer deck and there was another hard control dralnu, lich lord deck countering his stuff and he still killed all 3 opponents.

The Problem with him is that he can get out Mycosynth Lattice + Darksteel Forge + Nevinyrral's Disk out ridiculously easy with Myr Turbine plus whatever infinite untaps he can get out.

I feel like Progenitor Mimic typically doesn't see play in cEDH...

Mycosynth Lattice? Darksteel Forge? In cEDH?

Thaaaaaats not very likely to be true cEDH.

Just because a deck does well in your meta it doesn't make it a true cEDH deck. As someone who HAS a T1 deck that combo? He'd NEVER assemble it in time to stop a true T1 deck from going off. Prossh, Tazri, etc. They combo off turn 3-5 with counter backup.

You mention Progenitor Mimic and trigon, both of those cards see no real play in true cEDH Maelstrom Wanderer decks. They are slow or rely on combat damage to actually do anything which means they have to survive the turn cycle hoping that your opponents don't kill them.

n0bunga I haven't, I just see the potential. Focus down on just Isochron/Paradox and then artifact/instant tutors. Chances are you COULD go off T1 with an absolute perfect 7, just need 4 mana on T1 and 3 mana from nonland sources (one of which needs to be colored) and you can win on the spot.

So, Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt, Isochron Scepter, Dramatic Reversal = GG? As an example.

That being said you would likely be as reliant on Scepter as FC decks are on FC resolving not that that's strictly a bad thing, just something to be aware of.

Arcum is ok, hes certainly playable, but he is outclassed as a fast combo general by about 10-15 decks, and for anything else by teferi.

Seriously people this tier 0 nonsense needs to stop. The combo mentioned isnt even viable. The only arcum combo worth building around is paradox arcum, but honestly Thrasios is pretty much strictly better and Thrasios isnt tier 0. There are about 10 decks that on a given day can do just as well.

For you people that think that arcum or kaalia or Ghave is overpowered keep in mind that the fastest combo decks easily AVERAGE under a turn 4 victory in a vacuum (the fastest average between 3.1 and 3.3), and many have a solid counterspell package to protect thier combos. For what its worth Circu is probably tier 3 with dramatic scepter being a thing.

I'd be more inclined to stack the deck as heavy as you could with Tutors and counters.

In U/B there are a STUPID number of artifact tutors and U has instant/sorcery tutors out the Wazoo not to mention the unrestricted Tutors in B.

Then a heavy/decent counter package, some hate pieces, cyc rift, call it a day.

Something to keep in mind (and why I suggest a counter package) is if you put a Counterspell on a Isochron Scepter and have a Paradox Engine in play and mana to untap with the engine you can keep countering your own counter forever as long as the first one has a valid target.

Ohthenoises

Tazri's Allies can be slammed for Food Chain mana (either during the chain or to prepare). I've hit Imperial Seal targets with Excavator before and pitched it to Force. They're still synergistic pieces even if they're not as useful as other cards. The presence of an Ally in your hand also decreases the risk (thus increasing the options) of using Consultation and Pact, and prevents some lines that would shut off your fetching of an Ally when you're otherwise ready to win.

Oh I'm aware of the uses, I'm just saying that the argument of drawing combo pieces argument isn't a good one, using allies as examples.