For a secpn I thought you called SCION t5. But I agree that ud is overcosted, and his only claim to fame is being 5c. His dragon cheapining is practically useless in cedh, and he takes a lot of openung hand to rush out, but doesnt give you card draw, a hasty wincon, or even that much relevant utility. Sciin can straight one shot the biggest threat wgen he hits the board, and atraxa hits you with a thrumming bird and thats all she wrote. Its one of those " you can build a good deck with him, but he sucks himself" type of deals.

Sorry for the confusion Hotcake,

In other news, didnt we get a cEDH build for razaketh? was it found to be too inconsistent to be considered or was more data needed? That or has sonnet, narej or gigi not had time to update the logs?

chaosumbreon87, I just don't want to add my own decks constantly without people's approval:

Demon School for Demons, Cool.

Commander / EDH* sonnet666

SCORE: 5 | 16 COMMENTS | 901 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

Ok, minor updates:

• Fixed Archwizard's name

• Moved Kami of the Cresent Moon to T4.

I agree with everyone else here that it's not great, but I'm looking at it a bit like Braids, Conjurer Adept. Both can pull some powerful plays, but it comes at the cost of giving your opponents an advantage you probably shouldn't be giving them. That's bad enough for T4, but not useless enough for T5.

• Added my Razaketh list.

• Moved Kaalia of the Vast up to T2.5, and updated the decklist.

I didn't get any objections to this change. NarejED's list needed an update and was running some very win-more cards, so that was probabaly coloring people's opinions of her. I went over what I changed in the description.

• Moved Teneb, the havester up to T2.5.

Teneb was always Karador-lite for Boonweaver combo. He was demoted before T2.5 was a thing, and now that Protean Hulk's been unbanned he's probably got an edge again. We don't have a decklist but w/e.

• Moved Ghost Council of Orzhova to T2.5 and added pardusumbra's bomberman list.

It's really good and I feel sorry for doubting it for so long.

• Replaced NarejED Sydri storm list with HarroHunter's.

NarejED had mentioned in his deck's comments that Aetherflux Reservoir storm would make a better version of the deck, and that he just didn't have time to build it.

(Sidenote: Doesn't it bother anyone else the Sydri storm has exactly 0 cards that have anything to do with Sydri or her abilities? Even Grixis storm uses Jeleva a little bit. Sydri storm is just like, "This storm deck uses artifacts. Sydri MENTIONS artifacts. Perfect synergy!" I feel like Oloro would make a much better placeholder since he's extra life for Ad Nauseam. Don't change the deck at all, just have them switch places, and then Sydri can helm a deck that actually uses artifact synergy... Thoughts?)

I think that's all...

sonnet666 Thanks for taking my deck. I'll try and keep it up to date. Sydri actually is more relevant than you think though. She's a decent back up if you can't storm off since she can give Aetherflux Reservoir life link. You only have to get to 51 to activate once and you gain the life back for additional activations through life link.

I guess that makes sense for her to stay in T2.5, but if that's the only connection we might as well copy/paste your deck to be the sample Oloro list too.

Call me crazy, but Sydri increases the reach on Reservoir because she gives it lifelink, which means you get to machinegun your opponents once you reach 51 life and 3 colored mana. I thought that was the whole point of her being the commander for the deck? Storming off with Reservoir out takes 5 spells as opposed to a much higher total.

Sydri can also make lifelink blockers and destroy artifact lands and 0 rocks. And you could swing with resevoir (kek) to get to 51

If it's a storm list it's got to be easier just to cast spells...

But yes, I see the point now. Thanks guys.

What was probably throwing me off was that the old version was a storm list without Reservoir, so I was looking for a connection to the other 98 cards.

Still though, an ideal Oloro list probably looks exactly the same, card for card.

Because aetherflux is such an easy wincon. You can throw it in non optimal lists and it will still dow work. It and infinite bs engine improved a lot of commanders games on their own. See arjun and every storm recently updated list. Besides storm lists are running a pretty extensive shell, with a pretty low slot count for variation

How much different do the Jace and Baral high tide lists actualy perform? And also, Dralnu, Lich Lord is tier 3 right now, I will find a list in the next few days, since we don't have one. I had a friend tell me he used to have a Dralnu Doomsday list that was very good (the nice guy he is, he dismantled it due to it being to unfair). While I have asked him about the list, he just remembers it went undefeated for 25ish games against people trying to do cEDH stuff at local stores. He told me it was going off turns 3-5 consistently and remembers nothing that was in the deck. This was a few years back, a lot has changed since then, there is probably a little exaggeration to his story, but I am still inclined to think he is very good. Once I get a list, he might need bumped to tier 2.5. He also has not been reevaluated since paradox engine or aethflux reservoir and flashbacking lots of spells sounds good.

On some review of a search like this: https://edhrec.com/commanders/dralnu-lich-lord?f=in%3DDoomsday%3Bin%3DAetherflux+Reservoir%3Bin%3DParadox+Engine%3Bin%3DMana+Crypt%3Bin%3DImperial+Seal

I think that one of these 3 lists should do the trick (someone might find or make better):

Wolfie's Pile of Broken

DRALNU PARADOX DOOMTIDE

UB Storm

The lists at a glance also seem way more consistent than I thought and it probably deserves tier 2, maybe 1.5 if proven a little bit.

viperfang4, Stop telling us which commanders to move up because they're fast. Any blue/black deck can be fast. Not every commander of a fast deck is going to move out of T3. There are other factors besides being fast. Circu and Oona both play almost the exact same list and contribute more to the strategy than Dralnu.

The more a commander contributes to a strategy, the more free deckslots will be at the deckbuilder's disposal for interactive cards, the better the decklist will be.

Dralnu barely contributes to his deck's strategy, so if we were to rank him based off speed alone, then we would also have to rank every other Dimir commander the same, since the same decklist could easily be built around them instead. The Scarab God is not a T2 or higher commander; even though this deck, The Scarab God PARADOX DOOMTIDE, wins on the same turns as this one, DRALNU PARADOX DOOMTIDE.

Also, you saying that X commander should be moved up or down without asking for anyone else's opinion or feedback is highly annoying. You don't see me making changes before first asking if everyone's ok with them, and I have direct control over the list!

/rant

The second list you posted looks fine. I'll put it up.

Did any ug/x commanders get moved up because of flash hulk? Or has no one updated any lists to check for new placements. Like can sliver overlord be moved to tier 2.5 just because hes a pilitecht sink that searches every relevent sliver to otk to your hand. Search root play root if they try to remove fetch flash and crystalline then you just need trample/ evasion one of the pumps and hasty and you win. He wins with infinite mana better than sliver queen imo and the speed of flash hulk capitalizes on it pretty hard. He can also generate infinite storm count with hibernating sliver and aetherflux. He just seems way too versatile and perked out to not at least share a tier with queen

Hotcake_Gotsyrup, I couldn't understand most of that. You have to use a little less shorthand when you're talking about uncommon strategies.

I don't think Flash Hulk has effected many U/G/X commanders' placements, mainly because they were all very good already. I know Lilbrudder incorporated it into his version of Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, but that was already a top tier deck to begin with.

The problem with Flash Hulk is that it has a really high tutor profile. You have to get one specific creature, Hulk, to your hand (and not the battlefield), and then you have to get one specific instant, Flash, also to your hand. If you don't also have black then there aren't all that many tutors that do that for you.

The other problem is that all G/U decks already have access to a very simple Hermit Druid set up (Memory's Journey + Deep Analysis + LabMan + Gitaxian Probe), and HD is one single creature that can be tutored to either hand or battlefield.

All this means that while Flash Hulk is a good addition to Many U/G/X decks, it isn't likely to become the cornerstone of any of them any time soon.

On the other hand, it's super good alongside Boonweaver in any Sac Outlet / Reanimator style deck, like Karador and Meren, but those were already top tier decks as well.

Basically, all the things it's good in were already good themselves.

Hotcake_Gotsyrup, Ok, it took me a minute but I got what you're saying about Sliver Overlord. I agree that he wins with infinite mana, and he is 5 color and interesting, but my issue is that if you're packing all those slivers into your deck, then where are all the tutors you need to reliably grab an infinite mana combo? And on top of that, where's your interaction? How many combos are you going to include? Do they need extra cards like mana rocks with DramaticScepter? How are you going to fit all this in 100 cards?

If you want to build a deck and prove me wrong, go for it, but I think there are a lot of hurdles to get over here.

The thing is that overlord can, run only enough slivers to fufill a win con. Either Hibernation Sliver reservoir and infinite colored (less consistent win). Or overlord and infinite colored. you fetch Quick Sliver Crystalline SliverAny of the pump slivers either of the haste slivers and an evasion sliver that fits the scenario play them all and pump to win. This method only requires you run ~15 slivers (in case of unavailability of pieces) so you have plenty of room to fit in tutor redundancy, standard meta shoe ins and 2-3 solid infinite mana combos.I feel like this should make overlord t2 even with all the moving pieces. Decklisr for testing coming soon

I take back what I said about Hulk not shifting any placements. I just came across an excelent Varolz, the Scar-Striped list by sickrobot while browsing the cEDH subreddit.

Varolz was pretty shit before the unban, but since he's the cheapest sac outlet in the command zone and in Golgari colors, he's a natural fit for Hulk combo.

This deck seems to be a fast combo build with moderate interaction, low recovery, and few back up plans if Hulk is taken out of the game. Major strengths and major weaknesses is one of the hallmarks of T2.5, so that's where I'll put it for now.

@sonnet666 sorry if i seem like i am getting annoying, I got back from vacation a few days ago and have a long list of mtg stuff to accomplish that i was not able to, but I am just trying to proactively get generals to the right tiers. The criteria for tiers seems to be speed, consistency, and uniqueness. Where speed is how fast the deck wins, consistency in how often it achieves that and how little it can be disrupted, and uniqueness in that it brings an edge to the table that just having the color pair would do. I do understand that speed is not everything. In the case of Sram, he was not consistent, in the case of sygg, he was not unique or as good. But in the case of Ghost Council, it takes bringing something up multiple times to get change. In the case of Dralnu, I would probably have not listed him anywhere near that high if I did not think he brought something to the deck. We were debating over Sydri not being unique, but she extends the reach on aetherflux reservoir and has some utility. Dralnu on the other hand let's you replay every instant and sorcery in your deck a second time, and even if something gets countered, you can flashback it again to play. Scarab God on the other hand does nothing for the deck and is not a good comparison. I mean, you are doing about the same things I have been doing with lists you see, both of us are giving justifications and tier opinions, you happen to add several of them with very little discussion and some personal lists. It's not that it's bad, just don't be hypocritical about it, we are both trying to find the best decks we can to improve the tiers. Maybe my language was slightly bad, I don't feel like I demanded a tier change for commanders as I used words like probably and maybe, but that obviously came off wrong and I will try to improve that on my part. I also don't want bad feelings towards each other from this, hopefully you understand. I do still stand by Dralnu moving up though, at least to 2.5 for now until proven more.

On other topics, I think we should add a part in our description with the most common enablers/styles in an accordian and keep track of which decks in the top 2.5 tiers use those. Such as: Paradox Engine, Storm, Reanimator, Doomsday, Food Chain, Nooze, infinite mana, etc. This helps future building for decks, what kinds of combos/strategies are best in the format, and might get rid of some initial misconceptions to make people realize how competitive this is.

I was under the impression that we all agreed that Dralnu was better than people thought and he was to be brought to Tier 2 or so?

Hey sonnet666, thanks for the placement! That being said, I'd have to disagree on Varolz's placement, although I am biased. The deck does have some weaknesses, yes, but I can assure you that resiliency is not one of them. There are many ways to win even if a combo piece gets exiled or killed prematurely. Riftsweeper is a very powerful card, and can deal with a lot of the damage that exiling hulk does, and even if you can't get hulk back, you can still go for a manual Mike/Trike. I'd urge you to move Varolz to tier 2, as I feel that is where he is more accurately represented.

@sonnet666: Hey! Thanks for all the recent hard work you've committed to this list along with gigibeast and narejED. I just found out now Razaketh, the Foulblooded ability enables BR and RBX decks (esp. Kaalia of the Vast) to win via Worldgorger Dragon combo. The setup demands Razaketh, two other creatures, and BB1. I want to know if this discovery will warrant a massive update to the Kaalia deck primer, and whether or not it'll bump her and other BR and RBX decks up a tier.

This may come across as elitest but I think that while the new cards have opened up many new archetypes (competitive edh is more diverse than its ever been), it has also lessened the pool of viable commanders for competitive play.

While Protean Hulk may have made some generals viable, I feel like hulk and now Razaketh, the Foulblooded have widened the gap between the haves and the have nots.

I am obviously somewhat biased but the power differential between something like Meren and SBT/Thrasios is bigger than ever since they can do the combos Meren is trying to pull off much better. Having enablers like Intuition, Flash, Mystical Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, good interaction and card advantage, as well as powerful game enging abilities in the command zone (FC outlet & infinite mana sink) make it really hard to justify some of these borderline decks for competitive pods anymore even if they get a massive overhaul.

I hear that you're doing Unglued/Unhinged generals now? Okay. In that case there are two things I want to say.

1. Timmy, Power Gamer is legendary. His oracle text simply hasn't been updated to reflect the retemplating of Legend to being a supertype instead of a type because who cares.

2. I understand you're looking for a Johnny, Combo Player decklist, and I'd like to submit mine.

I have a new deck list for the Scarab God

Please take a look (and playtest). I'm vying for him to be moved to at least tier 2.5.

This deck was made to be more competitive than the last.

A few play tests revealed that it is quite resilient (got shut down by Zur in almost every way, he even got a Rest In Peace out, and I still managed to win).