I noticed something said much, MUCH earlier about Taigam. I agree, storm never really seemed the way to go after i built it. Maybe trying to build him as a mini-narset (not literally, i just hope you understand what i mea by that) and build him with extra turns, major card draw, etc. Drawing out the deck might just be a powerful enough win, though im still keeping the drama scepter combo in, as well as approach of the second sun as an alternate win con because it cant be countered if hes out

General PSA about Tier placements:

It seems like there's been a lot of mixed ideas lately (see: as long as this list has existed) about what qualifies different commanders to be placed in what tier.

This is becoming increasingly apparent and pressing now, with some of the issues that recent powerful cards have brought to the format.

Lilbrudder has been putting this better than I can, so I'm just going to quote:

"Being worth the build around is a big issue for most generals. Literally EVERY black deck has to answer the question. Why not just make this an Ad Nauseam deck and use Zur, Thrasios, Jeleva etc. who do the desired strategy better in this color scheme? Why bother with a dimir general when you could just use a 4 color general and have better combos/cards at your disposal. There is alot that goes into it but that is the essence."

This has mostly been a result of Aetherflux Reservoir and Paradox Engine making Storm and Combo viable for nearly every commander in a good color identity, as well as the Hulk unban and Razaketh upping the power of already superpowered strategies like he said above.

It is my belief that this problem is stemming mostly from the fact that our Tier Description section uses definitions for the tiers that are both vague and out of date. While I think that you are close to the mark, viperfang4, when you say that, "The criteria for tiers seems to be speed, consistency, and uniqueness," the fact that you even need to guess at that is sort of an issue for the list overall.

In order to address this, I'm going to take a crack a writing a more detailed tier description, and hopefully work out some sort of system that lets us give commanders defined stats. I've had this idea in the back of my mind for a while now, and this seems like a good time to try to implement it.

However, that is going to take some time. In the meantime, I'm going to request that we try to avoid moving commanders placements. Exceptions can be made of course for commanders who have gotten obvious new tech like Varolz, but for now lets just try to focus on adding decklists for the commanders who need them, and not whether those decklists suddenly mean they should be bumped up a tier. If we get great decklists for every commander in T3, then those decklists will speak for themselves about which are better than the others when we have defined criteria for what qualifies for each tier.

I feel it's best to avoid moving too many commanders, because that has a tendency to muddle the list and make it difficult for anyone who's trying to use this as a resource, and moving on commander based off speed, combo strategy, etc. has an annoying habit of setting precedent for any commander who can do the same thing.

To keep myself in line with this, I'm going to move Kaalia and Teneb back down to T3. That was hasty of me. I assumed since I brought it up last month and no one objected that everyone was fine with it, but I probably should have tried harder for confirmation.

Dralnu and Cricu are going to stay where they are for now. They were both in T4 when we discussed moving them up. They moved up. That's all for now.

sickrobot, Even if I were gung-ho on shifting commanders spots right now, nothing is going to jump from T4 to T2 overnight. You can consider this a probationary period for Varolz. He could move up to T2 in the future. We'll see.

Gennten, That sound's like a cool idea. I recently updated the Kaalia list in our description to include Razaketh, but I hadn't thought of using Worldgorger combo with him, NarejED's deck used a combo with Hellcarver Demon, and my version just updated that to use more relevant cards. I'm a little confused on how you would win with Worldgorger though, since there isn't much in the deck that is an outlet for infinite mana. Could you maybe comment on my decklist here, and we can discuss the combo in more detail?

Athraithe, I'm not sure Approach of the Second Sun works too well with Taigam, since giving it rebound doesn't stop it from being put back into your library he first time you play it.

I like Turns for Taigam too, but I've been finding it difficult to build since Rebound is such a tricky mechanic. It doesn't rebound spells that exile themselves, like Temporal Mastery, because they're already in exile from their own effect, and it doesn't rebound anything you don't cast from your hand, so typical spell recyclers in blue like Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Telepath Unbound  ^Flip don't work very well either. Maybe you'll have better luck with it then I have.

After reading his primer I could definitely see sickrobots Varolz's list being tier 2. Having a sac outlet in the command zone mitigates G/B's biggest weakness in the hulk department (lacking an easy way to kill hulk aka Flash).

Valroz does seem tier 2, teneb does seem like karador lite and tier 2.5, I can't speak for kaalia until we get that hammered out a bit. The primer in the Dralnu deck does say he uses the commander in most games but does not require it, it just makes going off faster than not having him and for a stronger more consistent turn while going off since you can flashback every instant or sorcery in the deck. While I was not looking at Circu, he also does seem to improve the deck as he could be a win condition or just exiling all their pieces in the process.

I do see sonnet666's concern about commanders jumping tiers too quickly, but I the list is progressing, there is discussion about those generals, and it goes to show that we have missed some things and are just coming to realize how good the decks could be. Your "Infinite Mana Survey" has put quite a number on my list of generals to watch, but we could easily take that into consideration with other cards like an "Protean Hulk Survey", "Paradox Engine Survey", etc. and I am keeping my eye out for things we have overlooked, that is the only way we can continue to place things correctly. To quote, it's kinda like something in modern that some pros were saying, "Death's Shadow has always been here, we just didn't realize until now that it was the best deck." Not saying these things are the best decks, but we are always going to be discovering new good decks, we all love this game because it is so deep.

As for Lilbrudder's quote about why not run a general over another, that is exactly why we have tiers, of course if there is a general in tier 1 that does the same strategy better than a tier 2 guy, he is clearly better. But that does not mean that the other general does not belong in tier 2 because it is still better than decks below it. Just because a top tier is better doesn't mean we have to raise it that high, just to an accurate tier of it's power and that is what everyone on here does. I do doubt we have overlooked a tier 1 general somewhere though.

As for getting a more accurate description of the tiers, that sounds great. I would also add an accordian tab tracking combos while we're at it, maybe someone or me can get a spreadsheet going on that. The new commander sets always shake up the tiers quite a bit, hopefully we can get a lot of updating done by then, and also find quite a few generals we overlooked with various surveys so we can more accurately reflect all the generals power levels.

Would anyone be opposed if I just wrote DECK NEEDED in the description for every commander we don't have a list for?

It would look ugly but probably encourage more submissions.

I'm curious the justification for Athreos, God of the Dead being Tier 4? I mean it's obviously not competitive, but every build I've played against in a casual setting is really strong.

irisfibers, Giving your opponent choices is typically just an invitation for them to figure out how to screw you.

Smart opponents will refuse to pay for anything that doesn't matter if it goes to the yard or not, and make sure to pay for any creature that you would rather have back in your hand.

In a 4 player game your opponents will have 120 life to start, and there's no way you're going to have 40 creatures die quick enough to matter. By comparison, Purphoros has a hard time just getting 20 creatures to ETB timely enough to be relevant.

That sounds good sonnet666, I was just about to recommend that we added in the tier accordians all the ones without decks.

irisfibers A stax/hatebear build of Athreos, God of Passage might be good, but we have a lot of decks needing checked and some housekeeping things to do, feel free to try or find a build.

Also, we have a partners list that does not have that many decks submitted for it, a lot of pairings are bound to have competitive builds, don't neglect those either as we fill up decks we need.

sonnet666 the plan isnt even for taigam to make approach have rebound, its to rebound some draw spells/dig spells (impulse, dig through time, treasure cruise, etc) and then after they rebound cast approach. The theory is that the spells with be cast on upkeep, dig you through, and have you immediately draw -> cast approach for the win. Its just an idea right now though, and i am attempting to test it as an alternate win-con to drama-scepter/aetherflux. As i was building the extra turns deck yesterday, i ran into the same problem you did. I have about 4 cards for extra turns, and just giving them rebound doesnt do a whole lot unless you can recur them, which wastes slots on cards like Call to Mind or the overcosted Spelltwine, which spelltwine also exiles. Extra turns on taigam does NOT seem the way to go, but neither does storm. Both seem uderpowered for what he can do. One good "combo" though is taigam and Maze of Ith as long as he has hexproof or something along those lines

Well, the "combo" I thought of was an extra turn spell + Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's ult, but you'd have to chain 4 or 5 turns with her put to get that.

Anyway, even if you don't build into turns, I think you'd be remiss not to include Time Warp & friends. A 5 mana Time Stretch is certainly nothing to scoff at.

Does the addition of the "crucible on a creature" allow for a Titania bump in tier? Green creature tutors and recursion is great and because you have an easily searchable crucible, the deck gets more explosive and faster.

What do you think of Neheb, the Eternal ? He gives you infinite attack phases with Aggravated Assault if you hit for 5 or more which is very easy, In a 4 player game, Pyromania for 5 makes enough mana to hardcast any eldrazi titan and Wheel of Fortune, maybe pay 5 into Pyromania , get 15 mana, hardcast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Final Fortune to then swing with kozilek, and get infinite combat steps? Win? Sounds like a fun little deck.

I think Neheb is better in the 99 of purphorous tbh

The combo you described can easily be just enabled by playing a single creature in each postcombat main phase. (You generate 6 mana per creature that etbs)

E.g. Neheb precombat, deal 6, skip through combat, get 6 mana, play hordeling outburst, deal 18, activate assault, get 24 mana (18 plus the 6 from before), repeat.

Takes a bit to kick it off but....

Nominations:

Neheb: Eternal Smackdown

Samut: Samut Ad Nauseum

Erebos on the way

Hello! This is my first time posting on here.

I just wanted to say Thank you for making this awesome list to everyone who helped make it what it is today. I read through the comments as best I could and have been following this thread for a couple months now. The commander I am interested in talking about is Ezuri, Claw of Progress.

I saw the list that you have on here that it looks like thegigibeast and sonnet666 worked on. I posted it in one of the various cEDH forms that I frequent. I got some feed back, and here is some stuff that we came up with:

You can Flash + Protean Hulk Into Sage of Hours and four one drops for what is basically a win.

We kinda decided that the Hermit druid route was kinda clanky. I have some alternative back up plans that I am working on and will be submitting the deck when I am finished working on. think Cloudstone Curio and Aluren with protection. I have looked into a variety of ways to tutor in G/U and feel that I have actually found some decent ways to get flash hulk tutored up, again more on that in the near future. I want to do more playtesting and get more input from my various cEDH friends before giving you a more final list, but I do feel that I have improved on the old list link a fair bit.

I noticed that you guys seem to have an influx of tier three commanders that might needed to get moved so I thought I would share the new(ish?) wincon for this guy. It does revolve around having that particular commander which is really why I felt I should share it. I am curious if you guys think that will be an improvement for the deck, or if I need to finalize my list more (Which I plan to do either way).

I hope when all is said and done to have a better Claw of progress deck list to submit that will maybe be considered for a link on this page.

Also what do you guys think about running Dramatic Reversal+Isochron Scepter combo in this deck? or is it just better to use mana dorks and Paradox Engine?

It seems to me this deck could win turn four or five without any protection. but it would be better off as a stax-combo hybrid to make it hard to outrace since it will likely be a few turns too slow against better decks/commanders. I would love some input from you guys though.

I just realized I broke rule number one by posting that. Feel free to take down or delete my comment if you feel that it isn't contributing anything in a positive way. Sorry about that.

Erastaroth_The_Duchess_of_Hell: I'm pretty sure that rule is only there to stop players posting stuff like "My The Lady of the Mountain deck is really good and it wins all the time in my playgroup, why isn't she tier 1?!" after all, it seems dumb to not let players who have experience with commanders talk about them, especially if they're asking for feedback on stuff, not demanding a commander be put in a higher tier.

Erastaroth_The_Duchess_of_Hell The first rule is more to prevent people from being biased and arguing for commanders to be moved up just based on that bias. You seem to be actually coming in with good information and don't seem to be really pushing for a tier change as much as looking for help in researching a new deck design so I see no problem with that. If anything it's good that people are looking outside of the top tiers to see if there are any diamonds in the rough. I think it keeps things from getting stale.

Could someone by chance make a tier 3 Daxos the Returned deck? Or point me in the direction of a really good one?

I created the rules simply to prevent people from turning this (amazing) list into a battlefield about arguing that their commander is the best, wins in the playgroup... BLAH BLAH BLAH. You are fine with what you are doing posting this list, since you are not arguing about the placement, you are simply helping this resource by providing your input, because that is the idea of the list. Even more, it may be contradictory with the rules (I might have to reword them), because the only thing I do not want is people arguing about the placement of their commander too much, but we definitely need help from people playing a certain deck if we want to optimize it, so... I will se for that but so far I think discussions are going great here with the current rules.

So, about Ezuri, Claw of Progress. It is not the first time this commander in particular is talked about. I am sure if we look through the archived comments it has been brought up a lot of times. Before Protean Hulk's unbanning, we thought it was done, but now I definitely think we need to change things around. (and I have not worked on that list sonnet666 did)

As you said, Flash + Protean Hulk could assemble the main combo available to this specific commander, being Sage of Hours with enough space left to fetch one drops to fulfill the requirements, giving us infinite turns, winning the game. Blue can easily tutor for Flash, and green can easily tutor for Protean Hulk. Now we start having some fun. Even more, all the combo pieces you mentionned are good even outside combo. Flash might be good for a big ETB effect, Protean Hulksimply is a good tutor in the deck, and Sage of Hourscould win even without being tutored like that. And togheter they become a 2 cards combo (3 if we count commander but he always is available so easier to have). The best about it is that the combo also is a lot more compact, without the need of dead cards like Memory's Journey simply to get back the combo in case of exile. I would be greatly interested in seing your list, as I think it has the potential to be much stronger than what we actually have (sorry sonnet666). You did not provided a link Erastaroth_The_Duchess_of_Hell, and I would greatly like one.

I am not sure about the inclusion of Dramatic Reversal+ Isochron Scepter though. Sure, it could help you untap all your mana dorks and go infinite in that way but... What will you do with all that mana? Your commander, unlike Thrasios, Triton Herois not a sink, so we loose that access to drawing our deck with infinite mana and winning from there. Even more, Isochron Scepter would be shut down by a card I definitely think should be in the list, Null Rod. I know I don't have your decklist yet, but I am pretty sure Paradox Enginewould be superior in the current situtation (I may be wrong, I often am).

Definitely should be an hybrid between stax and combo. We have a lot of mana dorks, so why not using them to break parity? Winter Orb (+ Gaea's Cradle to break parity even more, with the package to tutor Cradle), Null Rod, maybe things like Rising Waters, Back to Basicsif we can manage to have enough basics in the deck, usual stax like Trinisphere would be good (past the few first turn we no longer rely on casting dorks so it would be good), Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance... The deck is running blue, so we have access to artifact tutors, which should make it easy to play the stax game with those artifacts, similar to what a mono-green Yisan, the Wanderer Bardwould be doing, but much better in our case because we actually have access to artifact tutors.

tldr; I think your idea is great, and I can't wait to see the decklist and help you out the best I can!

@Zenaku17

FOr now I don't think there has been a lot of discussion about Daxos the Returned, so unfortunately we have no decklist available for him ATM, but I still have a few suggestions for you.

If I was to build this deck, I would try to include things like Glistening Oiland Phyresis. You could have fun sacrificing Glistening Oilto cards like Auratog, returning it to your hands to cast it multiple times a turn and stack on exerience counters. From there, you could simply create some huge tokens with your commander, give them infect and swing to take down a player in 1/2 swings.

Luckily for you, W/B has access to good enchantments, enchantment support, good tutors, removal... For a tier 3 deck you are not in a bad spot. For sure, all the black tutors allowed by your budget (Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Grim Tutorare amongst the best) would be good. More specific tutors like Enlightened Tutor, Idyllic Tutor would be good as well.

You have a lot of enchantment support, and depending on the route you decide to go you might need different enchantments, but on top of my head I would for sure try things like Ghostly Prison, Worship, Phyrexian Arena, Necropotence, Chains of Mephistopheles, Moat, Island Sanctuary, Luminarch Ascension, Sphere of Safety...

Speaking of enchantment support, I would try Academy Rector, Mesa Enchantress and mann others.

For lands, you always have the white version of Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum. You could also include Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth+ Cabal Coffers, with lots of tutors you could get those reliably and you would never miss mana.

You also have access to enchantment creatures, they would also trigger your exerience counters. Some hatebears also would not be that bad, and I am thinking about Spirit of the Labyrinth.

And also don't forget removal (lots of options so I won't list them all here.)

Good luck and if your decklist seems optimized enough don't be afraid to come back here for a review and improvements!

Thank you thegigibeast I really like the infect idea did not know those cards exsisted. Perhaps I will make a deck and submit it to be listed. What about Anointed Procession as a addition also?

Don't forget Flickering Ward.

Is there any merit to Daxos being the commander for a deck with Curse of Misfortunes + Curse of Death's Hold + Overwhelming Splendor? (More casual of course)

Question to anyone running Titania, Protector of Argoth.

Have you considered running or are you running Endless Sands? Obviously it only functions in a version of the deck running more creatures but it seems like it could be used to decent effect.

In the same vein are you running Hashep Oasis? Even without other deserts it can sac itself more or less repeatedly. Just not sure if the +3/+3 is something the deck needed.

Thanks!