So I think a big thing that Jeleva does which Kess doesn't is actually get you somewhere from nothing.

The whole idea that "I just exile 3 lands and some creatures" is a worst case scenario which is an unfair assessment. Similar to Kess there will be synergistic scenarios and those which are awful.

The deck does not need either Jeleva or Kess to function well. In fact, I think this is likely the best reason to play Jeleva, as when the deck can't do anything any more, Jeleva seeing 16 cards is really darn strong. Kess also only nets you 1 card per turn too. It's even better when Jellybean exiles an opponent's Doomsday.

The Jeleva placeholder argument is not a reason to immediately switch to Kess because it assumes Jeleva was a placeholder in the first place. You generally want to play the best general for a deck, so by some of the logic here there are no placeholders since you are playing the best general for your deck. Like it was said, no one actually plays Oloro DD. No one plays Mishra storm either for Grixis. The argument that Jeleva is fodder because she isn't somehow the best general for Grixis storm is pointless to use.

Instead, evaluate what they do by card quality. You are using a specific general for a reason.

Jeleva Pros:

1. Casts for free
2. Steals from opponents
3. Highest potential for complete turnarounds and plays from horrible board states
4. Excellent early game play to bait out a turn later Naus or steal other storm players' cards
5. Vampire
6. Jellybean
7. High raw card advantage

Kess Pros:

1. High synergy with current cards in the list
2. Lets you play a longer, grindier game by allowing for more hand sculpting
3. 3/4
4. Decent value play on her own
5. Floating Wizard Girl
6. Intuition

Jeleva Cons:

1. Blind searching/digging
2. Requires combat
3. Less synergy with storm lists

Kess Cons:

1. Requires you to actually have something to add resilience, poor at coming back from nothing
2. Softer to graveyard hate
3. Less of an early game aggressive presence
4. Weaker into the storm mirror

I think this for the most part covers pros and cons of each commander. To be honest, they will both be terrifying combo generals. Jeleva always has been and always will. Kess will easily earn her place as a tier 1 Grixis storm/combo commander. But really though I want to get people off the mentality that the commander doesn't matter or something. It's an important part of the strategy.

Kess does not win the turn you cast her unless your packing like 7-10 mana. Kess maybe replays a cantrip or topdeck tutor the turn you cast her. Both try to win the following turn.

Sleepy has the right of it. Most 5 color generals are unplayable because if your general does not advance your gameplan 5 colors of card options still makes it worse than a deck that gets something valuable out of the command zone. That whole all 5 color generals are tier 1 nonsense is way outdated.

n0bunga rip, meant that for AlwaysSleepy. Lilbrudder so you are saying kess will do most of what jeleva did, and more, while being a more consistent card overall. i'm pretty sure that's grounds for superiority. no one is saying that kess will obsolete jeleva. but if you would look at tasigur, you would notice he is weaker than thras if only due to a lower cmc with less inputs and being a COLORLESS sink, as well as allowing for a partner to thin the deck by 1. jeleva has some serious downsides needing to stick needing to attack, the chance of exiling a card you really need without a way to reuse it and more easily removed because of worse stats. jeleva just inst as good as kess in general, you can debate if she needs to be dropped to reflect this, but kess really is a stronger card to have in the command zone.

I don't see how Kess is more consistent than Jeleva; they're literally jammed in the same shell. Kess does more late and when you are in a stax heavy pod; Jeleva does more early in getting free spells.

@n0bunga:

Me: But in the end, tier lists are pretty much useless, so arguing over which deserves to be in Tier 1 is futile. Player skill plays into winning games much more than deck strength at pods filled with highly powered decks (this is assuming a relatively close power level of decks over the course of many games).

You: "Player skill plays into winning games"

If everyone really maintained this stance, why have Tiered decks at all?

Me: ... That's exactly what I just said.

That is not what I said. At this point I have said all I will on the subject. I am excited to play against and possibly brew kess

I mean if you look at it that way I guess Kess too is just a placeholder commander then. Next year WotC might print a 2 mana grixis commander that gives all your spells storm. The probability of Jeleva hitting a tutor, a wheel or something other good is really high in a competitive table with other spellslinger decks. If Jeleva instead read "When ~ attacks, search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library" (which she commonly enough pretty much says) would she still be placeholder?

Lilbrudder that is essentially what you said. "In casual circles Jelly is super inconsistent and somewhat terrible. In compertive games, most decks will give her free gas and free gas is incredible for storm." that is called inconsistency. "Kess will likely expand grixis archetypes and take a good proportion of Jellybeans pie, but she will not simply replace her." that literally translates into ". . . kess will do most of what jeleva did, and more. . .". anyway, when people start brewing kess more heavily we can evaluate both better with less hype.

Not at all. Just because a general is only good in competitive games does not make it "inconsistent." Why would you play grixis storm in a casual environment? It would be stupid. Kess is better (Overall) but she is not necessarily a speed general. You dont just plop a general in an existing archetype and say "Mission accomplished...Tier 1 Baby!" To suggest that Rev needs to replace his general is insulting, especially since there is no way any of us are going to build a better deck in a week with our killer Kess brew. Archetypes take months to years to get to the level of degenerancy that Rev has developed. It is the best deck in the color scheme by a fair margin. Nothing is remotely close (yet). Let us please cut the hype train bullshit a fair bit.

Note how I stated with similar power levels. This means that in the higher tiers, it's kind of irrelevant. And everything else is casual where it's also irrelevant.

Lilbrudder it isnt just the competitive vs uncompetitive things, some of the higher tiered decks literally dont have a density of cards with enough value/the abilty for jeleva (to want) to hit. also, i never said for rev to replace his general, and even if i did, it wouldnt be "insulting". im mainly saying that kess is better overall (glad you agree), and we can now evaluate jeleva outside of the guise of "happens to be the best current storm commander".

Very few good decks lack relevant targets actually. Blood pod, which is still not represented, and maybe like 1 variant of Thrasios. Even those decks run the obligatory black tutor package. So playgroup makes a huge difference here.

Btw @Everyone

Prossh is not tier 1

Yidris is not tier 1

Razaketh is not tier 1.5

Scion is not tier 1.5

Brago and GAAIV are not tier 1.5

Animar is not tier 1.5

Karador is not tier 1.5

Tymna IS tier 1.

Tymna herself does deserve at least tier 1.5, she is a very good toolbox general. The blood pod tymna tana deck itself is probably tier 1 and competing with teferi for the best stax deck. I will comment on lilbrudder's downgrade suggestions later.

Ok, so I see (with what Lilbrudder said) that there has been some time since we updated the higher-tier commanders. I agree on some of the placements he said, and some changes will be done.

• Tymna the Weaverhas some much decks available, with so many different strategies, pairing with Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tana, the Bloodsower for example. I think tier 1 is safe for her...?

• Tana, the Bloodsower should be moved at least to tier 2, because of the BloodPod deck she helms.

• Prossh, Skyraider of Kher probably can be dropped to tier 1.5

• Yidris, Maelstrom Wielderis really strong storm commander, but if we have arguments for it, maybe should be dropped to tier 1.5 I guess, with the rise of BloodPod there are more decks that can block and prevent us from getting to cascade.

• Razaketh, the Foulbloodedmaybe I am biased (because I like it a lot), but I can see it staying tier 1.5, there are so many lines to victory available as soon as he comes into play, being either storm, Paradox Engine, artifact storm (with Shimmer Myr), Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, the commander itself... The idea is not to rush Ad Nauseam like Sidisi does, it is different. sonnet666 has a pretty good list, and I am currently testing and trying to improve on it even more, to reduce CMC for better Ad Nauseamin case we go with this plan and to add other options to help having more ways to victory while staying a compact and CMC-lite deck.

For the other commanders mentionned, I can't really know, I would need other advices, because I have never faced them really much and I never looked at playing them that much neither.

Dralnu is easily Tier 2, if not higher, as well (definitely better than Atraxa), if we're proposing shifts. Atraxa is strong in 75% or less metas but horrible in comp metas.

thegigibeast, I feel that the list has needed an update for a bit now. With sonnet666's return (sorry for your loss mate) you can maybe work on the deck list a bit more. As far as I was able to tell from when last we talked the list hasn't been updated since the hulk unban?

Maybe that is just because of my Claw of progress brew that you said you would give some feedback on? (EzurggroTech)

For what it is worth, I am willing to help out where I can. I feel like Ravos and Kess look to have spots higher then tier 3. I have even seen some brews where Inalla might be higher then tier 3 but I am skeptical on that one.

Ramos is really good, I would say it's tier 1.5 because of flash hulk and Ad Nauseam. Conflux is nuts with that deck, being able to get both of those combos for a really secure win.

buildingadeck, I personally think Atraxa just needs bumped down. Most of the cEDH players that run those colors just use partners instead. Proliferate is a slow mechanic. Maybe I just haven't seen any strong decks with her at the helm. nearly every decent deck in those colors I have seen do Tymna + Thrasios instead.

Ramos hasn't been tested, and on the overall, it's fairly weak.

Also, Atraxa just sucks. Still have yet to lose to that deck.

How is Atraxa tier 2, I have never played against an Atraxa deck and lost.

"Probably begin at Tier 1.5 deck"

This is why tiers are arbitrary. And the problem with Ramos is he doesn't DO anything and is 6 mana

buildingadeck What do you mean? He gives you 10 mana my dude...

Storm has no problems with producing mana. Card advantage is what they need, and Ramos doesn't do that. Look at Jeleva, Kess, Dralu, Zur, JVP... All of them accrue cards. Producing mana isn't a problem for these kinds of decks.

@n0bunga: I'm a vocal minority, but the competitive community agrees with me, and that's really the only place that a tier list would matter.

Storm decks are running 27-29 lands: clearly, mana is not an issue. You can only use Ramos' ability once a turn, so it's not like you're going inf with staff. Use your head and realize that Ramos has potential, but is certainly not going to start at Tier 1.5. And NO ONE in the competitive community is testing Ramos rn. There was talk when he was spoiled an eon ago, but mostly, people are under the impression that he's mediocre. The 6 mana to cast him isn't helping. Kess, on the other hand, is seeing testing from me as well as others in the community, and to success, which is why she is receiving a lot of attention.

n0bunga Ramos isn't even integral to your combos. Just the fact that you have a colorless 5c commander, that can dish out 10 mana, is incredible. Conflux is an ez win card.