Again, I don't play edh storm but I've played modern and legacy storm. You need mana and card advantage both.

Jeleva does provide card advantage but she doesn't really provide ramp. Her ability doesn't allow you to abuse things like High tide (the easiest way to get mana) her ability also gets worse depending on the amount of nonspellslinger decks around you. Imagine seeing Yisan, Selvala, and Karador in a pod playing Jeleva?

Kess allows you to double up on what you need right now by using your grave. That DOES require getting stuff into your grave but you are only working with your own stuff.

To sum up my opinion, Jeleva and Kess are on par in a spellslinger meta but Kess starts pulling ahead when your meta starts to become unknown due to consistency.

Damn, I wish I was here earlier for the Kess-Jeleva discussion.

Y'all 're sum dum mudder-fukkerz! WE DO NOT HAVE OPTIMIZED LISTS YET! KEEP THEM BOTH IN TIER 1 UNTIL SOME LISTS POP UP! This is why I was advocating for Leovold and Yidris being kept in Tier 2 on release (this was pre-0.5 tiers): WE ARE ARGUING OVER THEORY! I HATED the precedence we set with those two. We are squabbling over putting something in the most 'prestigious' tier simply because we regard it so highly (and I agree with a bunch of you about the meme being overdone). I have been playing Grixis Storm for a while, and I was always glad to have Jeleva (especially when Leovold was around). While I do not know for sure if I would rather have had Kess, I DO know that Jeleva still offers something important to the deck.

Now, if everyone understands, let's have both in Tier 1 for at least a few weeks, then return to this discussion after we have DATA!

My apologies if someone else covered these points; I was getting tired of reading the long posts that were getting nowhere.

My personal IMPRESSION is that that Kess will overtake Jeleva, who will be bumped down to Tier 1.5, like what happened to Boonweaver Karador when Thrasios-Tymna made him 'obsolete.'

Also, I advocate for the rule that NOTHING can get into Tier 1 on release. Tier 1.5 should hold the potential powerhouses until we have data.

You don't need to draw cards in 5C, you just need tutors.

thegigibeast, sonnet666 - Can we not mess with the Tiers until we agree on the initial placements of the new cards being added? Having two conversations that mess with what many people care most about sounds like a recipe for disaster. Just look at this Jeleva-Kess discussion.

@n0bunga: Yes, you've been, as you said "too busy with Kess" (not a very hard deck to build tbh) to look at Ramos, and yet, he's so powerful. If he's so powerful, why are you occupied with Kess 1 day after she was spoiled when Ramos was spoiled a month ago? Your lack of effort to pursue him proves my point that he's a question mark. While producing 10 mana is good, Conflux is a pretty bad win con since Ad Nauseam is the best engine in storm decks as they exist.

The thing about Ramos is: we already have access to so many rocks, that the mana advantage portion is kind of already solved. Ramos does little to actually help you gain card advantage, which is the part that's harder to surmount. I love that you think I'm unimaginative about his capacity. I think he's a good card, no doubt, but to jam him into Tier 1.5 completely untested makes no sense. Kess, on the other hand, makes more sense since you can take the preexisting Jeleva shell, jam her on top of it, and swap a few cards out (again, not sure how you've been so preoccupied brewing her; pretty simply), so she's already tested, more or less. Also, she is, in a lot of ways, an improvement on Dralnu, a deck that I recently brewed that has seen success in competitive metas. In essence, she should be good. Ramos, on the other hand, produces mana, which is an okay ability, but with no substance. I will not, however, continue to converse on this subject since you seem to question my intelligence in ad hominem fashion rather than address the points about which we've spoken. Good day.

For reference and clarification I'm not debating Kess/Jeleva placement, simply stating my opinions on which is better. I'd never dream of trying to place either of them.

Guys, take this to each other's walls please, this isn't strictly related to the list and this kind of argument doesn't need to be seen by everyone here.

Regardless, we don't need drama in an objective area.

Happens to us all. I think a few weeks ago I was guilty of it too, realized it halfway through and took the conversation to walls.

Back to my question from much earlier today. If I flicker Kess do I get another flashback? Or...

Ohthenoises Nope, it says on each of your turns, I'm pretty sure this is the same as saying once per turn.

Jesus... You all collectively wrote an essay since last night.

Let me try to clear up a few points in no particular order:

merrowMania, No we're not going to make any changes without taking time and reaching a consensus. I don't think we're going to start moving anyone until after the C17 commanders are in the system and we hash out their initial rankings.

buildingadeck, Oh snap, you caught us. The tiers are arbitrary. The community agrees. Delete list. Abort, abort. Time to pack it up. Nothing to see here folks. Y'all head on home now.

As far as the Jeleva vs. Kess discussion goes, regardless of whether you think Jeleva was a placeholder or not, I think it's best that we set a definition of what a placeholder commander actually IS, so there'll be less confusion on the topic:

Placeholder Commander:

noun - A commander chosen to be representative of a particular archetype of maindeck cards, when said archetype has been shown to have merit in cEDH AND there are no printed commanders that directly play into the archetype's gameplan available. In such a situation, the commander in the requisite color identity that offers the MOST support for the archetype is chosen to represent it a Placeholder, as long as that commander does not already have a more viable cEDH archetype that suits it best.

We actually have another Placeholder commander on the list currently, Savra, Queen of the Golgari is standing in as representative for Thrumming Stone / Shadowborn Apostle Storm in Tier 3.

In terms Jeleva and Grixis Storm, the question moving forward would be whether her abilities directly play into the archetype and would be detrimental to lose, or whether they are simply unrelated but useful support that people playing Grixis Storm have gotten used to and don't want to give up.

Obviously, arguments can be made for either, and we don't have to decide this right away.

One last point, reversemermaid, you said a few times that Kess was slower than Jeleva, and I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from. My understanding of Kess was that you could begin to storm off without playing her, then if you start to run low on gas, you could pay 3 for her just to recast something you need to keep going. Wouldn't that be faster than Jeleva since you don't have to invest in her the turn before?

Ohthenoises, Since no one answered you: Yes, flickering Kess does let you flashback another spell. Her ability is phrased just like Karador's, and this is in his rulings.

(Also, it's interesting to note that Kess's ability isn't quite the same as Flashback. Kess's ability will only exile the card if it would be put back in your graveyard this turn, while flashbacked spells are exiled if they would leave the stack at all. This means you could Buyback a spell cast from your graveyard with Kess, and it would still return to your hand.)

Lilbrudder, I've been meaning to move up Tymna and add a Blood Pod list when I add my next round of decklists to the description. I just have a bit of a backlog of good decks that could be put up right now.

As for the other commanders, can you be more specific about where you think they should be move to? Just saying they're not in the right tier isn't that helpful. Also, some data to back up the changes would be nice.

Erastaroth_The_Duchess_of_Hell, I was updating my Ezuri list to include Flash-Hulk last night. I've checked out your list, and I still think my HD plan is a better back-up combo than the Aluren/Cloudstone/Paradox plan you've got on yours, but this is a lot to talk about, so let me make a comment on your deck and we can talk about Ezuri in more depth there.

buildingadeck, I'm highly against moving Dralnu up. Let me explain why, so people will stop bringing him up constantly:

Dralnu helms a storm/paradox/flashback/doomsday list that can utilize his ability to play every spell in the deck twice. These are all good qualities for a cEDH commander, and he's certainly better than the Tier 4 placement we had him in before. However, I believe there needs to be consideration in this list for ranking commanders lower based on any critical weaknesses they may have. Dralnu has a pretty obvious and apparent weakness. I think we can all agree on that.

Whenever I bring up Dralnu's obvious weakness, people usually come back with one of two answers.

The first is that you'll typically only play Dralnu when you're ready to combo out. This would be fine, except that the only available haste granter worth running in your colors is Lightning Greaves, and this deck needs to look for too many combo pieces for you to be able to rely on seeing that every game. That means that, like Jeleva, even if you only play Dralnu when you're "ready to win," he still has to sit on the board for a whole turn before doing anything useful. Now, with something like Jeleva this is no big deal, the worst thing that happens is someone removes her and you don't get your free spell, but with Dralnu a single Blasphemous Act, Rolling Earthquake, or Subterranean Tremors is going to brick your entire boardstate, all three of which see play in cEDH. MAJOR WEAKNESS.

The other answer people usually come back with is that you can win just fine without ever playing Dralnu, which is all fine and good, but isn't really a good argument for why he should be moved up in tiers, as there are other Blue/Black commanders that could be helming the same list.

In light of Dralnu's potential and how popular he seems to be, I could see him being moved to Tier 2.5, but that's the absolute highest I think he should go, keeping his drawbacks considered.

n0bunga, I think Ramos is going to end up being placed high as well, but people saying he shouldn't start so high have a valid point. We agreed back when Leovold came out that we shouldn't start commanders in Tier 1 as a matter of precedent. Kess is a bit of an exception, since it's a non-commander centric deck that is pretty much built and tested already, but Ramos is still not figured out and has very little data. Starting him in Tier 2 wouldn't hurt anything and would give people time to figure out how best to build him.

Prossh: Is slower than Tazri and SBT on average. Has less interaction than either and worse colors. To have Prossh above SBT at this juncture is not justified and SBT is not tier 1. Tier 1.5-2.0

Karador: Is completely dead from a competitive standpoint. Thras and Tymna murdered him. Tier 2.5 and have a nice day

Yidris: Is outclassed by Thras Vial Smasher. The turn you cast Yidris is the Turn paradox storm plays dramatic scepter or a main phase ad naus and wins. Too slow for tier 1. Tier 1.5 is fine

Raz: Much better as a reanimation target than in the command zone. Strictly better in the 99 than undead Sidisi, strictly worse as a commander. Tier 2 or 2.5

Aside from Tazri, none of the the 5 color generals are good. Scion's backup was good 2 years ago but there is nothing Scion can do that is even remotely good. It does nothing worth tier 1.5. Tier 2.0-2.5

Brago. GAAIV, and Animar are not generals I have extensive personal experience with but none are highly regarded in competitive circles by the vast majority of people I talk with. Animar is forced to play tons of creatures and has no black for tutors or white to slow down others. That feels like a bad place to be for an all in combo deck. Neither Brago or GAAIV seem particularly well equipped for handling the current crop of fast combo decks. All should be demoted a half a tier imo

Ok, you've looked at the other commanders in Tier 2 and 2.5, right?

Making the edits you suggest would require us to push more than half of them down into Tier 3. Not gonna happen.

This isn't a list for what's the best of the best in cEDH at the moment. It's a list for every commander in the format. There needs be some diversity in the power level contained in each tier or we'll end up with 20+ different tiers.

I agree with sonnet666 here. We are considering the power of every commander ever printed, and demoting them just like that would be an error I think.

I think a good example is Karador. Yes, sure Thrasios + Tymna murdered him, I agree on that. But, the deck running Karador is still playable, I mean it is nowhere complete jank, and still on par with something such as The Mimeoplasm, also outclassed by Thrasios + Tymna.

I think we should calm down on demoting everything and changing everything. Let's colleclt some datas. Let's gather some decklists. Let's optimize things a little before moving that many cards around. And I won't even join the Kess discussion...

That being said, I also wanted to comment about two commanders that have been talked about recently, Dralnu, Lich Lord and Reaper King.

Even if some people are not considering it really good, I like Dralnu quite a lot. He offers some potential of a cheap, easy to build UB storm deck which might be a good entry point for cEDH, a good way to learn how to play storm and Doomsdayon a somewhat budget (like I am forced on now because of school). However, like it have been said before me, it has a pretty huge drawback. If ever damage was to be dealt to him, we are pretty dead. Sacrificing our board to a damage spell would be pretty bad. Sure, I have not saw a lot of damage spells in cEDH (except for the ones mentionned by sonnet666, even those I have not really seen...). Definitely does not belongs to tier 4. I would agree on moving this commander up to tier 2.5. He is not the most powerful cEDH deck ever built. However, the deck can win without the commander, and if the commander survives to untap, it is pretty much a guaranteed win, since we could go double High Tideand double Bubbling Muckin a single turn, Paradox Engine...

Now, onto Reaper King. There definitely is some sleeping potential over there. Food Chain generating so much mana from our commander... We have seen what 5c Chain decks are available (just take a look at General Tazri if you don't know what I mean). Sure, the deck will be nowhere as strong, but I definitely think there are a lot of things that could be done with it. I am not sure going for a BloodPod deck is the best idea, even if it seems attracting. I will have to look more in depths to it before moving it though, it is too early to say. But it has a lot of potential.

I mean not really. Tier 1-2 should represent competitively viable decks and its not currently doing that.

I am going to go through a few commander's real quick that have been brought up.

Dralnu/Circu: I personally still think that Dralnu list is Tier 2, but if that is not accepted yet, 2.5 works. Circu is also running a similar deck with a different upside in hozing the other storm players with the third ability, and adding another wincon and should be moved up similarly.

Prossh: He is no longer the best food chain deck, as Tazri is. He is still very strong, but tier 1.5 still may not be justified.

Yidris: Having to connect with combat damage is a downside. While the storm does not rely on it, he is still sitting in tier 1 or 1.5 once consensus is heard. Increase of an archtype is not the best excuse for placements, every deck has bad matchups.

Brago: The commander breaks Stasis, there are very few cards that can do that and that is arguably the hardest stax card in magic. No Change.

GAAIV: Probably still on par with Tasigur Control. No Change.

Animar: It has been discussed here quite a few times that he is not what he once was, but is still a very consistent combo deck, no change.

Karador: He continues to only get better with Protean Hulk and Razaketh, no reason to change despite Thraisos+Tymna/Ravos probably doing it better, but that is why they're higher.

Teneb: He is Karador-lite and I now support moving him up to tier 2.5 like somnus suggested before his absence, hulk got him back.

Razaketh: He needs no change, as gigi summed up.

Scion: There is no reason to move that deck down with the amount of combos and consistency of each it achieves.

Jeleva vs Kess: I am staying out of this discussion.

Savra: Why is Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker not the Shadowborn apostle deck with his synergy? Vela the Night-Clad also seems quite good with that strategy.

Atraxa: The deck listed is not the stax version of her with parallax wave and parallax tide, but the boonweaver combo which she does nothing for other than colors for draw and counters. I am confused in why the build doesn't utilize her, and why she is placed here with boonweaver, likely needs lowered until a different build is figured out.

Alesha vs Edgar: Edgar needs proven, both do helm stax decks of the same color that will directly compete.

Azami: Probably needs revisited due to the wizards deck and if changed evaluated to be moved back to tier 1.5.

Keranos: Needs moved up to tier 2.5 with the deck I listed above as a stax deck.

I think that raps up most topics, probably missed something.

I have around 5 neglected generals in mind for decks like Reaper Kings that should bump them up.

I am also still working on a lower tier cleanup list that is a hidden deck on here, I will release it when done. There are 470ish generals down there so it is taking much longer than anticipated and I have also neglected it for a few brews lately, will get back to it.

We still need to get decks for all tier 3 commanders, so continue to submit decks for somnus tier 3 project.

Remember to not take any of the debates personally (specifically Jeleva vs Kess), as some people seem to be doing just that.

As a total aside question, was a Tier ranking potential for 1996 world champion as a commander ever established? He was obviously better before the tuck-rule change ironically haha

merrowMania when you said lets keep them both in tier 1, i also advocated for that lol, so thank you for saying it louder and bigger!

Also, if no one is opposed, id be more than happy to make a kruphix, god of horizons edh deck. Itll be similar to omnath locus of rage more than likely with the amount of mana generation, but with access to blue ill have counters, cyclonic rift, and much better draw power than red

viperfang4, Savra is the Shadowborn deck because a lot of the cards that make it work are in green, and Vela is much better as a Palinchron combo commander. (Didn't I make a deck for that?)

Athraithe, Go for it.

Don't let your dreams be dreams... Or empty from your mana pool.

sonnet666, Thanks man. feel free to talk to me on my wall or on my deck page.

I actually started with your list and brought it to a facebook group that the lab maniac guys run. That group was telling me that I should cut the HD combo (and maybe even a backup plan altogether). Run more Stax, do the flash hulk combo for a win etc. Since then I have been play testing it and trying to streamline the thing. I would be more then happy to find a way to play against your deck so you can see it in action if you are feeling up for it. although to be perfectly honest it looks like you are getting swamped with things to do just on this page alone. So no Hard feelings if you don't get around to it, but if you won't consider my deck for a link here then maybe think about a bump in tier? having access to hulk flash seemed to put this deck on the next level. for that matter the challenge to play my deck is open to all, I need to playtest the thing and I want to show you guys that Claw of progress is the real deal (at least for a commander that has been sitting on teir 3 for a very long time). lol

So feel free to hit me up for games!

Building a non-casual kruphix deck is much harder than i thought it would be. Im too used to casual play with him (main commander for a year and a half in casual play). if anyone would like to help my build it, ill be linking it shortly after slapping in some staples that are needed heavily. Trying to make arbitrary amounts of mana and finding an outlet besides lab man, eldrazi, or helix pinnacle is proving to be more complicated than before. Link going up in about 10 minutes, id love some feedback from everyone!

Dralnu's downside rarely comes into play in comp games, and there are certainly more vulnerable comp commanders. Simply removing Selvala can turn the entire deck off, for example, but she's still a good deck.

List so far Kruphix, god of manaz