A color identity is not sufficient for tier one status. If that were the case Cromat would be tier 1, which is laughable even with Hermit Druid. As we have discussed previously a really powerful color identity can sometimes vault a commander to tier 2 assuming they are aggresively costed and have a relevant ability. Teneb, the Harvester literally brings nothing to the table beyond a late game plan b. He is nowhere close to tier 1. His color identity is barely enough to keep him in tier 2. Personally I see him as tier 3 since he costs 9 plus haste plus an open board to be relevant the turn he comes into play.

Teneb, the Harvester is nearly as powerful as Karador, Ghost Chieftain. The only thing keeping him out of Tier 1 is his reliance on the combat step. As is, he's easily one of the type five strongest commanders in Tier 2.

Besides the fact that he has access to Boonweaver Giant combo what makes Teneb so powerful? I have never played against him but he just seems to me like a slow clunky commander with a good ability that requires open mana and combat damage.

I don't play Teneb, the Harvester nor have I played against it, so I don't truly now its strength. But if I had to take a guess the deck would be similar to Karador, Ghost Chieftain. I feel it wouldn't have as many toolbox creatures as Karador, but you would probably trade those out for things to help punch damage through. I cannot imagine a flier having to much difficultly getting through to deal combat damage. Against 3 other players, one player is bound to have an open field. Also unlike Karador, he is cheating a creature onto the battlefield for three mana. It also has the added bonus of being able to grab anyone's creature. Again, this is only my speculations, but I can see why he is tier two.

I had a question about control as a competitive archetype. Early I mentioned Anafenza, the Foremost as a control option general that runs similar combos to Karador, Ghost Chieftain. I was told control is not a very strong archetype and that Gaddock Teeg is only tier 2 because it effects a lot of players. But I noticed Shattergang Brothers in tier two. So my question is Shattergang Brothers is a tier two version of them a gravepact control type style with combo finishers or is there another way to build the brothers that lands them in tier two?

Well, for starters, getting to six mana by turn 4 and reanimating Iona, Shield of Emeria turn 5 is a lot easier than hardcasting Iona by turn 5.

I think the difference between Karador and Teneb is a good illustrator of the role that multiple avenues of deck-building plays in these rankings. Sure, they both use Boonweaver combo and are close competitively, but if you take away the combo Karador still has many different ways to be built around (stomp-y, stax, recursion, Hermit Druid, I've even seen Spiritcraft/Soulshift...), while Teneb is sort of pigeonholed into a, "Entomb big creature, reanimate big creature" playstyle, because he's not efficient enough with any other strategy.

The issue is more that Anafenza isn't really all that controlling. For starters she has absolutely no control over the board (Shattergang can remove or throttle every permanent type that matters), and her gravehate effect isn't really that great, since it only effects creature going into the yard while she's on the field; that's actually extremely narrow. To top it all off, she doesn't have blue in her color identity, which is detrimental to any deck trying to be control.

A single +1/+1 counter a turn is also pretty negligible in commander, so half of her abilities are not worth considering from the start.

I'm not trying to argue for Anafenza, the Foremost. I am just curious about Shattergang Brothers. The only reason I brought Anafenza up is because that is where my confusion is coming from.

Shattergang Brothers is almost like having Martyr's Bond as your commander, what's not to like?

Again, I am not saying Shattergang Brothers are a bad commander. I was just confused because the person who replied to my original comment made it seem Gaddock Teeg was the only tier two control general

Oh, I had to go back and check. NarejED said that Gaddock was the only hatebear commander in T2. Much different than control commander.

Hatebear is a subsection of control that involves playing permanents that limit your opponent's (and frequently your own) ability to do things (usually cast spells and activate abilities). Hatebears get their name from the fact that such abilities are often printed on 2/2 creatures for 2 mana (a Grizzly Bears), but they can come in many other forms as well. Examples include Gaddock Teeg, Kataki, War's Wage, Magus of the Tabernacle, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Containment Priest, Null Rod, Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, and Aegis of the Gods.

It's kinda like squares and rectangles. All hatebear decks are control decks, but all control decks are not hatebear decks.

So I'm curious to talk about two generals...

First, I'm curious about why Tim the Enchanter (a.k.a. Angus Mackenzie) is not tier 3. Specifically because he seems to be an absolutely exceptional super-friends commander. Not only do you have access to a majority of the amazing planeswalker cards with bant colors (no you don't have black but still), you have access to a general that will protect them until they start casting their ultimates. Further you have enough fog, removal and blue shenanigans (flash, counterspells, etc) to really make this strategy work. I've never played against him specifically but there is a Progenitus super-friends deck in my playgroup and once it gets started it's really hard to stop... So it seems like a control, super-fog, super-friends deck would be pretty difficult to face off against.

Secondly, I am curious why Dragonlord Ojutai is not considered higher tier? I know he's been talked about before (though oddly in the context of being demoted) and I'm not explicitly suggesting he be moved up to tier 2 but he's quite versatile and I feel a bit underrated. A friend of mine recently took his Grand Arbiter Augustin IV stax deck, subbed in Heliod, God of the Sun and Serra's Blessing, made Grand Arbiter Augustin IV a body in his deck and put Dragonlord Ojutai at the helm. It just won a (multiplayer) tournament yesterday where he was facing off against Child of Alara, Bruna, Light of Alabaster and a couple of other tier 2 decks. He can also become a voltron commander and while he's certainly nothing compared to Uril, the Miststalker (or Bruna, Light of Alabaster for that matter) as a pure voltron commander his access to control and card draw could very well make up for it. I guess I'm surprised he doesn't get more love as a general in one of the most powerful commander color combinations who is 5 cmc, flying, hexproof, 5/4 that Anticipates when he does combat damage. That seems like a pretty solid package to me.

I could see moving Angus Mackenzie up to tier three. A shame that Prophet of Kruphix was banned, though, as that's a pretty cute combo, when it works. You can still do it with Seedborn Muse, however. (And, yes, I'm aware that Ms. Prophet essentially combos with playing Magic: The Gathering, but no matter)

Now, as for OJbro, I'm not so sure. I certainly think his ability is fun, on a subjective level, but I don't exactly know if he's tier two material. I think your example had more to do with the fact that your friend was a skillful player, and that he was likely under the auspices favorable politics. His color identity is reasonably good, but I wouldn't call it 'one of the most powerful'. Frankly, that accolade belongs to Bant, Sultai, Simic, or Five-color. Think about it: Green adds a considerably more diverse array of options to mono-blue than white does. It can destroy artifacts and enchantments just the same (and even easier), it can ramp much more effectively, offers much, much more in the way of card advantage (not that that's strictly necessary, considering that you're already blue), offers stronger tutoring options (generally, I feel searching for creatures is better than searching for enchantments or equipment in EDH), and even offers Regrowth effects, alongside other utilities. Now, the one area where white is far better than green when being paired with blue is the access to far more powerful removal options, be it sweepers or spot removal. However, between Cyclonic Rift, Ezuri's Predation, Beast Within, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Reality Shift, you can still piece it together well enough to manage, I daresay.

Oh, and, as an aside, perhaps your friend should be running Brave the Sands in addition to or in the place of Serra's Blessing. Sure, the second effect is mostly just gravy, but it's better than not having it, as I'm sure we can all agree.

The auspices of favorable politics. And 'Now, the one area where white is far better than green--when being paired with blue--is removal options, be it sweepers or spot removal."

I'm sad.

@NoOneOfConsequence

I wasn't saying that Azorius is anywhere near as powerful as anything with green/blue.. I agree that UG+ is generally "it" as far as color identities, perhaps I overstated. I would also tend to think of Dragonlord Ojutai as a tier 3 and more of a top end "fun" deck. Mostly I was just (sort of) suggesting him for being moved up as Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is tier 2 and apparently he can be subbed out for him in an optimized stax deck and the deck functions just as well (with an extra, reasonably strong kill condition). In a setting where you're playing optimized Narset, Enlightened Master, Karador, Ghost Chieftain/Boonweaver Giant where you're combo-ing out on 4th turn I could see it being a bit less viable. But again I'm not explicitly even suggesting he be moved up I just wanted to talk about it.

Also, Tim the Enchanter would have been pretty crazy with Prophet of Kruphix. Oh well... Any one else for moving Angus Mackenzie up to tier 3?

For the discussion of Dragonlord Ojutai, while he might be able to sit at the helm of a well-built stax deck without too many problems, he doesn't really bring anything to the deck himself. GAAIV is a lock piece in of himself that also makes key cards easier to drop early game. DLO is a semi-hexproof body that can generate filtered card advantage.

Where does Angus Mackenzie get a nickname like Tim the Enchanter?

I ran a Angus Mackenzie deck. I never tuned it and over all it was a poorly made deck. But the reason I never tuned it was because it was a mana hunger deck. I needed three mana every turn to fog. It came down to, do I play my superfriends (typical high CMC) or do I save my mana to protect myself. The deck really only lasted two or three games (it's only win from a combo) and it was turned into a Rafiq deck.

Long story short, Angus Mackenzie, while he is the ultimate fog commander, is to slow. Most planeswalkers have CMC of 4 or higher. If you want to cast them and protect them thats seven mana (so a game with little ramp you might be able to turn 6). Furthermore, you can only fog once per turn rotation (most likely. Things like Seedborn Muse allow for more fogs). In a multiplayer game you cannot stop everyone.

@ Aggro-Blaster:

Tim the Enchanter Clip from the Quest for the Holy Grail

Angus-Tim Proxy

The characters are nearly identical, so logically Angus is called Tim.

@NarejED

Thank you for the explanation.

I'm in favor of moving Angus up, honestly I thought he was tier 3 already. He's in a great color combination and there's enough playable ways to reuse his ability every turn (Seedborn, Liege, Elixir), it's hard to imagine he doesn't belong in a higher tier.

I've played against Dragonlord Ojutai a number of times and he doesn't seem particularly strong to me. He's an acceptable body with acceptable abilities but doesn't lend himself to any particular strategy, and generals like that are always worse than they look. He's not an embarrassing card in a vacuum, but whatever strategy you're attempting in those colors is going to have a better option.

@NarejED RE: Dragonlord Ojutai; That makes sense. I rescind my (sorta) suggestion for reassignment..

@Aggro-Blaster RE: Angus Mackenzie; I could see it being mana hungry if you were depending entirely on Tim as the primary/only fog source. In bant colors you have access to a lot of other low CMC fog spells like Fog, Spore Frog, Kami of False Hope, Constant Mists, Clinging Mists (to name a few) not to mention Propaganda/Stasis effects, ramp and card draw. I feel like you should be able to make a relatively low curve, control deck. (I'm kinda tempted to do it just for fun, though Tim is $70 by himself so mayb not anytime soon).

But fog effects are bad though...

Like, the only reason Angus is even playable is that it doesn't cost you any card advantage to activate his ability. Pretty much any other one is an entire card spent on keeping you from losing life for one combat phase. That's terrible...

I agree and disagree with sonnet666. A fog on a stick is not that good. And overall fog effects aren't that good. But there are times fog effects are useful. Being able to stop an unblockable commander swinging for well over 21 damage with hexproof/shroud is a beautiful ability. But when your fog effect is on a stick it is obvious. It loses the surprise. It suffers similar drawbacks as Darien, King of Kjeldor. No one is going to swing if they know the outcome.

To change topics, what keeps Hazezon Tamar out of tier two? He is capable of producing a crazy amount of tokens with bounce effects. He can go infinite. He has some cool interactions with the changeling spells.

I agree for the most part. The protection of planeswalkers makes fog effects significantly better but tier 3 is a stretch. Angus gets worse the more opponents he is playing against and hes not even competitive 1v1. For instance, There is not a single Angus top 8 deck in any french dual commander tournaments.

Hazezon Tamar? Each of the qualities you've listed about him are of little competitive significance, frankly.

Simply put, it's all far too easily disrupted--the ways in which he goes infinite require too many pieces, none of which effectively protect or recur themselves, and all of which require too much to go off quickly in one unified turn. Vanilla tokens, no matter how many of them there may be, are nothing in the face of a simple Toxic Deluge, and having them vanish without the proper 'Oblivion Ring trick' preparations if Hazezon ever so much as leaves the battlefield is far too glaring a weakness for him to be considered threatening in any capacity. Moreover, given how expensive Hazezon is, and how his ability is only good when you have a critical mass of lands and Doubling Season effects, his early game is almost always going to be too slow and lacking in disruption to prevent other players from simply going off, as he needs to spend most of it land-ramping in order to execute his primary game plan.

Oh, and his interaction with changelings is cute, but largely irrelevant, I daresay.

There are only four viable macro-strategies in competitive EDH circles--hard control/disruption (normally with combo finishers), as exemplified by commanders such as Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Damia, Sage of Stone, Stax, as exemplified by commanders such as Derevi, Empyrial Tactician or Brago, King Eternal, dedicated combo, as exemplified by commanders such as Animar, Soul of Elements or Narset, Enlightened Master, and decks that utilize game rules which bypass the 'traditional aggro' resistant nature of the format, such as Infect or Commander Damage, or, at the very least, have abilities that drastically compensate for the typical weakness of this strategy, as exemplified by Ezuri, Claw of Progress or Azusa, Lost but Seeking. If Hazezon falls into any of these categories, it's the last of them, but he's just doesn't compare to the other available options.

Sorry for the likely intelligence-insulting lecturing, but I felt it was necessary in order to properly demonstrate my point.