enpc: Thank you for the reply.

I'll post my Savra, Queen of the Golgari since there is not a list for it yet. Always looking for improvements, but the deck is pretty consistent.

The Queen Long May She Reign

Commander / EDH spottedmink

SCORE: 1 | 159 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

spottedmink the only rule here is that you should post optimal and budgetless lists, even if you don't actually have the Cards or plan on getting them...it's not about how well YOU can play that commander in paper but how well you can theoretically build it.

If you people are willing to accept a tier 4 list, I like to think I've made a pretty damn good Avacyn, Guardian Angel deck.

God's Beloved Daughter

Winterblast I do need to update the land base but that statement does need to be erased as it is no long just cards I had on hand. There are reasons I do not have certain cards in the deck and should probably explain why.

spottedmink, Since the decklists we're putting up in the description are supposed to be the best possible way that that commander can be built (most of the time, anyway), we don't typically put up decklists that are actually what people run in real life. Most of these lists are just what people would run, provided they had a spare $5,000 just lying around.

If you'd like, you're welcome to make a copy of your deck, and update it so it's the "perfect" version of what you really play. A lot of decklists already featured here were people doing the same with commanders they run in paper.

Hey i love the list and i'd like to submit my decklist of karn silver golem. Although IMO he's closer to tier 2 as he can consistently get a W from turns 3-5. Karn, Silver Golem

n0bunga & sonnet666 Sorry for the time lapse I had thought about what Winterblast had mentioned the day after I made the post and really thought about the deck. I can to the conclusion that some change needed to be made for optimal an optimal list I just have not, until this moment, had the chance to make the changes. Some of the cards that you suggested n0bunga are definitely in the changes. I will make the changes tonight and attempt to polish the description to help explain why I believe certain cards fit better over other more popular Green & Black staples. I will make sure to include the other cards and suggest them as alternates since cEDH can be flexible depending on playgroup.

I think we should put somewhere in this thread something along the lines of "while casual and competitive are both states of mind, we are looking for technical competitive decks" or something similar. Maybe add a definition of what "competitive EDH" actually is so that people don't think that their semi-competitive deck actually is what WE consider to be cEDH.

I know that in the description we state that these decks are supposed to be the best possible build, that they aren't supposed to be personal decks etc. etc., but I think it needs to be in MUCH bigger text so that it's clearly visible. Maybe code the background of this page to show a simple "please remember that these are theoretical decks built to be the best possible build. Please do not post your own personal list." Or something.

I think the majority of EDH players are people who have a semi competitive mind set and like to build good decks that can win, but aren't necessarily playing or building real "cEDH" decks. They consider themselves competitive, they consider their decks competitive, but they're not something that would be posted as a decklist in this thread.

They come here, post their decks, and then we get into arguments with them with us taking the stance that their decks are not competitive, and them getting offended and claiming they are because they feel we are personally attacking them. And then we get ticked off because this happens at least once a week, explain that these are supposed to be the best decks possible, etc. etc., hurt their feelings, and move on. They are left with a bad aftertaste thinking we're assholes, and we're left shaking our heads because they just don't "get it". This cycle seems to happen at least two-three times a month, and I feel like it's leaving a negative impression of what cEDH is. And considering that most people don't really LIKE cEDH because it goes against what most want out of the format, I think we should be focusing on making a good impression as much as possible.

kyuuri117 I totally agree with you from the perspective of someone who submitted a deck for Ayli awhile back. I wasn't looking for someone to tear me a new one for omitting Mana Crypt etc. I was hoping someone would justify my deck choices based on hours of playtesting. I know better in a few ways now and after committing myself to stax I feel like I understand EDH a little better. Fast mana is generally always better but the meta you play in affects your opinions on the subject. Mana Crypt is a staple, without a doubt but if you choose to criticize everyone that submits a deck without it you are setting yourself up for battle after battle. In the end it is cEDH that takes the hit too, people start to feel cEDH belongs to some elite but the truth is the most budget cards absolutely destroy combo decks.

Going forward I'd ask that everyone evaluate decks not on what they plan to achieve but on how they plan to stop the other player from getting there first. It's a stax point of view but I think it is more valuable and promotes interaction which a lot of casual decks lack.

Razulghul: that strategy doesn't always work. Some decks are designed to be greedy and just race all of your opponents. In that case, those decks will be very control light comparatively.

sonnet666: I'd like to propose a revisit on Ayli's place in the ladder. I believe she can be a Tier 2 General (or at least a 2.5) in comparison to her current Tier 3 rating.

After carefully examining your Tier 1.5 Demon School for Demons, Cool., the currently posted Tier 3 Ayyyyyyyyli's graceful storm and other mono-black/orzhov decks, I believe Ayli is a powerful and flexible commander that allows similar (but not as powerful) lines of play as Razaketh, has access to powerful combos revolving Aetherflux Reservoir, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Karmic Guide but is flexible enough to allow Competitive/Casual configurations to meet the needs of many players.

To further support my claims, I built a primer for an Ayli's configuration Ayli's Death and Friendship that I think could be labeled at least Tier 2.5 and provides enough clarification on the different alternatives to make it Tier2 or Tier3.

Hi,

I've read these for a while and am surprised it's only just being talked about: a way around the constant arguments and poor communication. A clear guideline of what's necessary for a commander to be cEDH worthy would go a long way. Some might offer a decklist with 10 ways to win first turn and their decklist be thrown to the metaphorical wolves, as despite this being possible, it's got no resilience and a w/l vs a high tier deck of 1:10.

When you do even a brief analysis of most generals from tiers 1-2.5, the majority are win conditions in the command zone. Ie prossh, azami, tazri, teferi. The list goes on. When somebody offers a sweet karlov deck that locks out fairly good cedh decks, thats great. But on the other hand where do you as a player go from there? You're in a position where you must just sit and wait for a longer time while most of these decks have 50 percent of their win condition tutored for.

I never posted my Norin list. Because although it's danked out with combos, protection, some hatebears and control, it's just a weaker, more red control zurgo mld.

A great thing to put as a minimum requirement is that a deck must be able to overcome x stax pieces, in a range from leyline of the void, rest in peace, null rod and winter orb. Before it can be considered.

These decks feel like they are only to be considered within the meta of one another. So to place a deck on a tier, it would need to be able to have a very consistent style of games with other decks in its tier. Ie: the deck doesn't have to fight FCT, but it can go 3/3 with prossh, since it has longer to get set up.

If the stax decks in the higher tiers like brago are something your deck can trounce, then I think it's a little unfair for it to be ripped apart.

On the other hand: decks like an Ayli that doesn't use many stax pieces like... tabernacle or kataki, war's wage, these decks can be critiqued and builders should be given a brief "check the description" before they are given the 'praise' they need. These are examples that are just off the top of my head fyi.

cEDH is in fact its own meta. With the same lines as commander. Control, stax, beat downs, the lot. Everything is the same as non competitive edh. The games can be lightning fast. But cEDH isn't often so bland like that. Any good deck in this meta has protection, lock down and a way to win. If a poster were to post an azami deck with no mind over matter and no explanation on how they win, then it's fair for them to be roasted, even if they feel runechanter's pike is stronger.

Summary: new description section, please~Posters should get a brief warning or admit they've read the desc in their postDecks that aren't improving on an established tier deck need a good bit of explanation or rigorous testing and examples of BEING BETTER.Lastly: decks should check power level. Like, really check it versus some of these builds.

thanks CyborgAeon

I agree with your post, specially the part about decks needing to have a consistent style of games with other decks in its tier.

Regarding my Ayli suggestion (and I know you only used it as an example), I'm merely suggesting she's a bit better than where she's positioned right now. In the primer I provide examples of how she can become more or less competitive (and thanks to your post I added the stax approach which I had left out). I don't think she's Tier 1, 1.5 and I'm not even strongly advocating for Tier 2. Just Tier 2.5. Given that I play many of the decks in Tier 2 (especially Anafenza, Jhoira, Locust God and Teysa) I believe Ayli (in its different modifications) fairs well with most of them.

Obviously not down to me. But while she has a leg up over teysa, being a mana cheaper, a better blocker, and being more all round good removal it's hard to say I personally feel she's better. Teysa's at 2.5, so a mostly similar deck couldn't be far off the tier you're asking about. I feel you. Though I've not personally had a look.

Agree with what has been said. I think a lot of confusion comes from the title of this page. The title EDH generals by tier is itself confusing. Tier is popularity, and decks tend to be popular because they are strong. But for EDH, there are plenty of extremely popular generals, far more popular than the generals on the Tier 1 list, but they arent there because we are ranking the generals for cEDH power level.

If we were to create a true tier list, I cant imagine not having Atraxa on that list, or Ramos/The Ur Dragon. Those three are far, FAR more popular than anything on our tier 1-2 lists, regardless of the build.

I think we need to rename this thread if possible so as to not be disingenuous. We cant call this an EDH tier list when in reality it has long since been a cEDH general power ranking list. I think changing the name would go a long way towards stopping people posting personal lists and then feeling offended/getting hurt feelings because theyre told their decks arent good.

Now dont get me wrong, I love this list and the work put into it. Having all these decklists available is fantastic for the cEDH community; the hive mind at its best. But I think at this point we do need to be clearer about what this list actually is, especially as it is by far the most popular/frequented/useful thread on this site.

Tagging sonnet666 as he seems to be the mod who frequents this the most these days.

I think this thread is suffering a bit of an identity crisis.

There's a lot of cEDH discussion, which is focused around archetypes > commanders. Winterblast posted a beautiful 5-color Kiki-Hulk deck, but I wouldn't contend that it's a Ramos, Dragon Engine deck, because it usually wins without casting Ramos. Ramos just happens to be the least useless commander for this archetype to get to 5 colors.

A commander's utility - not just its color identity - should be central to the deck's game plan if it's being posted on a "generals by tier" list. If not, I contend the list rank cEDH archetypes, some of which are commander-centric (like Teferi, Temporal Archmage) and some of which are archetype-centric (Esper storm piloted by Zur the Enchanter).

Perhaps it would be helpful to have a section about cEDH archetypes and then follow with a list that centers around decks that win by casting their commanders some high % of the time.

On the other hand, if you run the tier 1 Grixis storm list and replace Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge with Sol'kanar the Swamp King you're still likely to beat up a pod full of tier 2.5 decks.

mmelton09 you've got a point that the decks should be something that uses the commander but then you couldn't justify a GAAIV build listed that doesn't actually reinforce the tax plan the commander has implemented...or you couldn't justify a Sliver Queen build at tier 2 that doesn't do anything with her as an infinite mana sink...on the other hand a decklist for Ramos is rather left blank than using a list that is better than a possible storm brew thst revolves around the commander itself?

Tier lists aren't undisputed among competitive players, quite a few even say they are completely useless because they assume a meta based on the chosen build for each commander while alone thrasios/tymna have a ton of viable cEDH builds and the lower tier you get the more equally good variations of each commander you will get.

Sheesh, you guys are really forcing my hand on this update. I wanted to have a few more days to work on it but I guess I'll just post now and save the rest for later.

Some notes before I start:

kyuuri117: I don't know where you got the idea that Tier = Popularity. I will say that that has never been my approach to ranking commanders on this list, and I don't believe it was ever Gigi's or NarejED's either. I also don't really see people on other sites, like the cEDH sub, treating commanders as better just because they're popular, so I'm not sure that's the consensus on what Tier is supposed to mean. (Hell, I don't even see other games ranking tiers based on popularity rather than effectiveness, but maybe I've been looking in the wrong places.)

Aside from that, I'm not going to change the name for one simple reason: This list has been around for a while and we've promoted it on other platforms. Changing the name now would break every link to this page that people have on this site or off. Not gonna happen. I'd rather this list be slightly misnamed than unfindable for everyone who's not a regular.

The Rest of You: What exactly qualifies a commander to have a particular ranking has been a point of discussion for practically as long as we've been doing this. This discussion is nothing new. Lots of people have lots of different ideas on the subject, and ironing out the description so we can all agree on those ideas has been on my to do list for a long, long time. The problem is, there are a lot of things that need to go into that update, and it's a big mouthful to chew with how busy Gigi and I have been lately. (I don't think NarejED is ever coming back. Hope he's well.) We will get there, I promise, but it probably won't be tomorrow or next week.

That we need a better kind of protocol for submitting decklists is a very good point. The idea is not to alienate people, and something to cite in the description would be very helpful for that. I will add that to my description shortlist, which now contains:

• Description of the qualities that each commander is ranked on. Subsections: Powerlevels of cEDH strategies. Level of contribution of commander to decklist. Placeholder/least-useless commanders.
• A point system for ranking commander qualities. (This is in the super nebulous prototype/idea stage right now. I do have a plan though.)
• More accurate power-level description for each tier. Hard number definable characteristics preferred. (E.g. "Must display X or more of the following Y characteristics." For anyone else taking Psych, think DSM5 criteria.)
• Explanation of example decklists (Purpose, guiding philosophy, and expected quality.)
• How to submit a decklist for consideration. Subcategories: What types of lists are acceptable to post. Generally required cards. How to make budgetless versions of paper lists.

If you'd like to help with any of this you can either:

• Message me with a suggestion on any other sections you think should be in the description. Posting on my wall works too.
• Type up what you think should be in one of these sections and send it to me. I'm a very slow writer (Not the best quality in a mod, I know.), and the less I have to write myself the faster this will go. I will credit you for any work I end up using.

Some more thoughts before I start updating, from my post on loudbliss's deck:

Also, I think you're misunderstanding how we rank commanders over on our list. There's no "different alternatives to make it Tier2 or Tier3," the rankings are based off of the commander as a whole. That means that we're only really considering two things: the best possible decklist that can be made around that commander; and how much that commander contributes to the effectiveness of that decklist. The reason there are black/white combo commanders ranked higher than Ayli right now, is that they act as combo pieces for their respective decklists, and so decrease the number of pieces that need to be tutored for to win the game. Ayli doesn't do that as much for the most effective strategies in her colors (Bomberman, Aetherflux, and Relic/Animate), so she is ranked lower.

Another thing to keep in mind is that what separates T2.5 and T3 is a little messy right now, since the recent printing of several colorless, universal combo cards (Walking Ballista, Paradox Engine, and Aetherflux Reservoir) have pretty much plateaued the competitiveness of the format across the board. We're not going to sort out what qualifies as a T2.5 deck (although I have a general idea) until most of the T3 decklist section has been filled out, so that's what I've been focusing on recently.

Ive always thought that tier = power level, not popularity (and popularity is basically meta share), but when I posted that in the modern forum like six months/year ago, I got shot down by everyone and told that tier = meta share (popularity), not power level. So Im now a bit confused.

Either way, I dont think its a huge issue, I just think some clarification about what exactly cEDH is would be useful for multiple reasons, listed above.

Changes to placements (discussed below):

• Razaketh, the Foulblooded: T1.5 --> T2

• Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord: T2 --> T2.5

• Varolz, the Scar-Striped: T2.5 --> T2

• Edgar Markov: T3 --> T2.5 or 2 (Considering)

• Kokusho, the Evening Star: T3 --> T2.5 or 2 (Considering)

Decklists added:

• Triton's Horde of Notions HD: Horde? More Like a Mess!

I don't think anyone else was gonna make this, and hes managed to utilize Horde's abilities a little bit, so I guess it gets the spot. Bravo

• HezTheGod's Numot list: Numot MLD stax

We had discussions way back when about how Numot wasnt good enough in multiplayer to be competitive, but theres no reason not to add a deck for him now that were filling out the decklists in T3.

• gossipmeng's Karn list. Karn - The Joy of Colourless (Competitive Rebuild)

Not much to say here. It's a compact infinite combo build that showcases colorless combo without getting bogged down with high cost cards.

• Iraruel's Edgar Markov Raz combo: PRIMER: Keith's blood ritual bonanza!

This is one of my favorites I found in my trip though the archives. Really awesome combo deck. Taking Edgar to fast combo was direction I was not at all expecting based on his abilities and colors. (I was thinking stax.) Some of the cards used seem like there could be better options, and I have some ideas on how to streamline the combo that I'm going to contact the deckbuilder directly about, but as a proof of concept this is perfect to put up as a decklist. Im even thinking about moving Edgar up to T2.5 or higher based on this list's performance. (Reanimating Raz is essentially a 1 card combo. It doesnt make sense to keep this in T3.)

• Dunadain's Kokusko Ad Naus: Kokusho, all the life

Another mono black storm deck. After playtesting this a few times Im thinking about moving Kokusko up. This plays almost as well as Sidisi, and the inclusions of Lich and Nefarious Lich are particularly effective (and amusing).

• mmelton09's Hapatra List https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-10-17-snakes-on-a-plane/

This is the best Hapatra list Ive seen so far. Does a good job of incorporating Hapatras relevant combos while not overlooking the utility the 1/1s can provide. There are a couple card choices Id disagree with, but theyre few enough and playable enough that I dont see a reason not to put this up.

I was going to make this our Hapatra list, but apparently the deck creator has deleted their account...

• Optimized Xenagos by Me.

I originally made this to be featured here anyway. I'm going to do a few updates and add a bit of a description.

For the record, I think this is likely what a lot of T3 decks are going to look like once we iron out what T3 commanders were suddenly made semi-competitive (T2.5) by Aetherflux/Ballista/Paradox. Fast, potentially lethal strategies that are strong enough to take out players or generate lots of CA, but are disrupted easily due to relying on things like creature presence or combat.

Decklists Updated:

• Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Update, by Me: Mold in His Ears

On my last trip through the archives I noticed kyuuri117 had mentioned that our Jarad list needed an update, so I whipped this together. Its not that much different, I just added lines of play for Hulk and streamlined the Mike/Trike combo using Walking Ballista. Altogether it has 3 main combos, Nooze into Ballista/Devourer, HD into Quillspike Nooze (Sac to Jarad), and Hulk into Mike/Ballista. Its not 100%, so if anyone has thoughts on how to streamline and refine the deck, Im happy to hear them.

(For comparason, the old deck is here: Jarad's Graveyard Midrange)

I also borrowed heavily from sickrobots Vraolz deck when incorporating the Hulk lines, and after comparing how much faster that deck is than this one, Im pretty convinced that we have Jarad and Vraolz backward in their tier placements. If no one objects, Im going to move Vraolz up to T2 and Jarad down to T2.5.

Decklist not added (but worth talking about):

• kyuuri117's Taigam Doomsday: UB Taigam Test Deck

I feel like this is one of those cases of a decks color identity outstripping the potential of commander its based around. Like, I can see that youve built a solid Doomsday list here, Im just having a hard time seeing what connects it to Taigam. Does Taigams filter effect even factor into any DD piles here? It seems like youre much more likely to cast DD before working up the mana to cast Taigam. What about him here makes this deck any better than another U/B legend running the same 99? It's sort of ironic that Winterblast just brought up commanders that don't play into their commander's abilities, as that's how I've been feeling about this for the past couple of weeks or so.

(Regardless of how you want to answer those questions, do you mind if we take this conversation off this comment stream for now? There's a lot of other stuff going on right now, and I want to try to limit discussions of particular decklists on this page. I subscribed to your deck, so if you want to respond in the comments there, I'll see it. Also, this isn't a hard "no" on your list, I just want to address these questions a bit before putting it up.)

• Ohthenoises's Feldon: Feldon start

I offered some comments on this version of Feldon, as the double reanimation combos seemed like the best gameplan anyones come up with for competitive Feldon so far, but Ohthenoises claims to not be interested in pursuing the build any longer. Anyone else want to take up this project?

In other news Ive also come to the conclusion that Razaketh should probably be in T2. I was really excited about my Razaketh deck for a while back when I made it (probably a good example of rule 1), but now that hes been out for a while I think its fair to say that his version of Ad Naus Storm requires more moving parts than Sidisis, which means Sidisi has more space open to run counter-control. Razaketh is a little more resistant to control naturally, due to his ability to tutor up responses, but Razaketh himself is mainly going to be the biggest counterspell target, so it seems silly to have them share T1.5 when Sidisi has much more room to run answers.

kyuuri117, I think that might have more to do with modern than anything else really. When there are only like 20 deck archetypes that are currently viable, it's easier to say that something's the best because it has the most people playing it.

That probably doesn't apply to cEDH, where there are at least 100 commanders that could be cEDH viable, and plenty more that see play besides that. The landscape is wide enough for meh commanders to be super popular.

Forgot to put Winterblast's Ramos list on that, but that's up too.

Now I really need to get lunch.

Hey sonnet666 thanks for the quick responses to today's earlier posts and the update!

I didn't delete my account (Hapatra post), but I did pivot on my ideas for Hapatra from balanced stax/combo to all-in combo featuring Hermit druid / Hulk to hard mana lock with Contamination / Null Rod.

I'm going to change my account name tonight / tomorrow then I'll clean up Hapatra and repost it (leaning toward balanced combo) and would happy to get some feedback and make adjustments along the way. I'll also institute a change log for decks of mine that are linked here (and not delete them)!

Hey sonnet666, could you also comment on my Nahiri list (Nahiri Stax) from a few pages back in the archive? I'm of the opinion that she's strong enough to be tier 3, but certainly open to suggestions.

artichoker, While I think your deck is good for what it does, I really don't see how Nahiri's abilities factor into stax. You only have one card that synergizes with her first ability (Skullclamp), and one that synergizes with her second (Batterskull). There are 4 other Legends in the deck, and swapping Nahiri for any of them would make for a better stax plan.

I don't think she should move out of Tier 4. For comparison, Hokori, Dust Drinker, arguably the best mono-white stax general, is in T3. There are also other decent mono-W stax generals in T4 right now, and they're not moving up either for being too slow (e.g. Yosei, the Morning Star). Mono-W is just really kind of bad as a color identity, sorry.

sonnet666, Nahiris main function is as a token generator to apply pressure and provide resources to synergize with cards like Tangle Wire and Possessed Portal. Thats why I built the deck around her as opposed to something like Hokori (who is definitely still good enough to be in the 99). Regardless, I think the point about monowhite being a suboptimal color scheme for cedh is one I agree with. I was just wondering if this build would be able to push her up a tier. Thanks for your comments.