The "threat of activation" on Angus makes him play up, as most opponents just won't attack you, and that is no joke. He's best utilized in a deck with instant speed disruption, which is a plentiful effect in Bant colors. Fog as a strategy is indeed pretty awful, but when it's repeatable and stapled onto your command zone it becomes much more interesting.

As for Hazezon, NoOneOfConsequence pretty much covered it. An expensive non-control commander just isn't very good.

I took no offense. I am a newer player (about a year) so seeing what contributes to competitive edh is something that will help me determine power level.

However I do disagree with some of the downfalls of Hazezon Tamar that you stated. I have never played against him, so I am mainly speculating at his possible power level. I do see how a Toxic Deluge can easily stop the vanilla token army, but you ignore the fact that this army is not coming until your next turn. Unless it is an instant speed wipe, haste granting effects turn that slow threat into a much quicker threat. This are effect you can play the turn that you get them with cards like Fervor Having Purphoros, God of the Forge out before those tokens enter basically means you are burning each opponent for twice the amount of lands you have. Purphoros, God of the Forge is an indestructible enchantment (Most of the time). That is not an easy target it to remove. The deck has more then one way to go infinite in which each card has synergy with in the deck. Angel of Glory's Rise + Fiend Hunter with a sac outlet makes infinite tokens at the beginning of your next turn. Similarly Karmic Guide + Reveillark with a sac outlet makes infinite tokens. Those pieces alone recur themselves. It also has instant speed infinite combos it could run with effects such as Dragonrage + Reiterate plus seven creatures (You need seven mana to cast Hazezon Tamar means you probably have seven lands) The changeling spell I was referring to earlier was Shields of Velis Vel. That one is on me, I should have linked it. Not only does that wipe an opponents field with your commander but also with Angel of Glory's Rise. The tokens will not suffer Hazezon Tamar 's exile effect if he is killed off before. The deck likes having a sac outlet so it encourages having one. The deck is capable of drawing serious amounts of cards with Skullclamp , Skullmulcher , and Collective Unconscious type effects. Hazezon Tamar is merely a finisher. Red provides all the response a player really needs. Between reds ability to copy spells it truly stops some game finishers. A copy spell stops a high storm count with Tendrils of Agony. It stops counters. It makes extra turn spells useless. They provide early responses and late responses. They stop a Rise of the Dark Realms. White provides all the removal you would need. And green provides the ramp to your finisher. Green and white provide all the tutoring that is needed and a Sunforger provides instant speed answers from your deck.

I am not saying Hazezon Tamar should be moved up. But in my eyes he provides a solid avenue towards a synergistic deck. I figured we had a debate over an old Commander, why not another? If we judge the decks based on the ability to perform the four same aspects of gameplay there is no room for growth. I simply asked what keeps him out of tier two. While I am not doubting that you put thought into your dismissal of his power level, I feel like you also ignored key wording in his abilities.

The problem with Hazezon isn't the power level of his text box, it's his cost and the color combo he's in. Seven is a lot for a commander that needs a lot of help to auto-win and he's in a shard that doesn't have a lot of tutor power or protection. The only other Naya commanders in tier two are Uril (who is broken) and Marath (tremendous versatility), and Hazezon doesn't sniff the power level of those two. Hazezon is the type of general that can dominate a casual setting (the definition of tier 3) but can't hold up against competitive decklists, which is what the first couple tiers are about.

With all this talk of Feldon I feel like I have to submit my deck The third path is the saddest. I went all in on the draw/discard with some more heavy hitters (and a little less dragon tribal than I've seen). My list is far from optimized but I feel like it has some punch. It can go wide with Purphorous + Myr Battlesphere or just hit your face with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.

I feel like Feldon should be Tier 3 due to a lot of the shenanigans you can accomplish from an empty boardstate. You can go from 0 nonland permanents to representing lethal in near to 1 turn.

Wew, finally had the chance to consolidate all of the updates. I sent the altered copy of the list off to Gigi so he can easily update the main list.

Didn't we agree Feldon should be moved to T3 already? I seem to remember that.

Hmm, sorry, must have missed that. My apologies.

Best fun I've had with a commander though.

Yep, Feldon's movement to Tier 3 is part of the update. Just need Gigi to log in now....

@Aggro-Blaster Yes, I both was and still am aware of how the typical build works--as well the changeling trick you just described--but that's for more effort than a more competitive commander has to go through in order to achieve a win, I assure you.

Also, I fail to see how copying a Tendrils of Agony will manage to do anything whatsoever. The storm trigger triggers when you cast the spell. Copy spells don't copy their target until said copy spells are on resolution, after they've been cast. That is, if you were to target a Tendrils of Agony/Tendrils of Agony copy with, say, a Fork, you would simply get one lone copy of your own of "Target player loses two life and you gain two life", even if you did this in response to the storm trigger.

Far more effort*. Argh.

@Nooneofconsequence

Oh wow. You are right. I don't know why, but for some reason I thought it did. But regardless it still nullifies Time Warp effects. And the reason I even mentioned it's different interactions was because in your response you made it seem that something like Toxic Deluge will nerf Hazezon Tamar completely.

I am going to state this one more time. I was not arguing for Hazezon Tamar to move up. I was speculating what keeps him out of tier two.

yavimaya_eldred thank you for actually giving me a response that answers the original question.

This is not about Hazezon Tamar anymore.

Now I feel this may stir the pot a little more but Maelstrom Wanderer and Melek, Izzet Paragon are two commanders that I feel suffer the same effect. You have a commander that cost 8/7 mana with abilities that are chance. I know you can have top deck manipulation, but do you have enough that can consistently be played every game? Maelstrom Wanderer shared two colors with Hazezon Tamar. The difference is white and blue. I know that blue is considered the strongest color and white is the weakest/second weakest (originally I was told it was red, but someone told me a recent poll swapped the two, I don't know regardless white is considered weaker). The three colors both lack tutoring capabilities (honestly, I disagree with that, but for the sake of argument) with blue lacking tutoring even more so than white. Blue has card draw, but the way I see it, green is just as able to draw cards (more conditionally, but for bigger amounts if conditions are meet).

Now awhile back I ask about Omnath, Locus of Rage. I was told he does not win the turn after he is casted (I disagree with this but I decided to drop it solely because I run him as a commander) like other tier two commanders (Maelstrom Wanderer was given as an example). How does Maelstrom Wanderer secure the win? Again, if a Hazezon Tamar deck is built properly, it should win if you are casting him, and he resolves, the following turn.

And just for safe measure, I want to make it clear, I am not saying Maelstrom Wanderer is a weaker commander than Hazezon Tamar and I am also not saying they are on the same level. But by the logic you used to dismiss Hazezon Tamar, Maelstrom Wanderer 's power level can be questioned.

Just looked back, Melek, Izzet Paragon is six mana, not seven. Just ignore him from the comment.

Sorry to spam, but I feel one comment was completely ignored.

@ yavimaya_eldred

You brought up a play style for Angus Mackenzie that I could potentially see being tier three level. Did you play against a deck or stumble upon a decklist that would illustrate that style of play? Or is this pure speculation?

Hazezon Tamar puts a handful of tokens into play. Maelstrom Wanderer wins the turn he's cast, assuming he's being played correctly.

Typically the question is asked "What makes a Commander capable of competitive play", not "What keeps a Commander from being Tier 2 or higher". A generic commander is not by nature automatically assumed to be at a Tier 2 power level. Nothing 'keeps' Hazezon from being Tier 2, just like nothing 'keeps' Barktooth Warbeard from being Tier 1. The possibility of them being so high never comes up because there's no reason to begin to think they're on that power level. Their abilities don't enable game-winning strategies like consistent turn 4 wins that is required for such status.

Never once did I say Hazezon Tamar was better then Maelstrom Wanderer. Also how does he win the turn he is cast? Sure there are combos he can drop. But he is chance. He is at the will of the top of your deck. Sure, there are Scroll Rack type effects but even still you are working with what your deck gives to you.

Furthermore, there is no right way to play Maelstrom Wanderer. With over 10,000 cards comes a near infinite way of playing a single deck. If you guys dont stop to look at new fresh ways of playing a commander this list never grows. I simple was revisiting an old commander. When you are comparing the power levels of cards in a tier system, there are aspects that do prevent commanders from being higher tiers. Regardless of how you call it, it is synonymous. Me asking what keeps Hazezon Tamar out of tier two is the same thing as asking what prevents him from being playable in competitive play. Now if you really are going to grip on wordings of questions you are ignoring the whole point of forming a list of commander by power level. If this is not the place to discuss that then I misunderstood the entire point of the list and I apologize for that. But if this is a place were people can discuss power level of commanders I do not see where I am in the wrong.

And honestly, at the end of the day a deck does not even need its commander to be considered competitive. Surrak Dragonclaw is considered tier 4, but I've seen a deck that is capable of fitting the tier two standards you guys described. The deck had very little use for its commander. But it was a deck that would consistently beat out commanders in the higher tiers.

You guys may know what is considered a tier two version of Maelstrom Wanderer, but simply telling someone on a form he wins the turn he cast if played correctly does not demonstrate his power level at all.

There is indeed a best way to play Maelstrom Wanderer, as is there a best way to play every commander. For example, it's an established fact that Derevi prison is by far the strongest Derevi build. it would take multiple bannings and rule changes to upset that. The list has been solved, much like modern Twin was solved before its banning, with deck-lists differing by 1-2 cards max.

I'm all for trying new outlooks on Commanders. There comes a point where you have to step back and look at facts though. If Maelstrom Wanderer fast combo has an 80% win rate while Maelstrom Wanderer stax has a 5% win rate, it's clear which is superior This is obviously a competitive-minded list, and it's assumed the best possible deck lists are used for each Commander when determining Tier placement.

Also, the description gives a solid baseline for determining the Tier placement of a Commander.

"1. Overpowered Tier (Competitive). The best of the best. These commanders are capable of either outright winning or creating nearly unwinnable matches consistently by turn 4 if left unchecked. They're strong, fast, and incredibly resilient to hate.

1. Strong Tier (Competitive). Only slightly weaker than the decks in Tier 1. These commanders are still capable of holding their own in any match, and they can usually win matches or set up unbeatable board states by turn 5 if unchecked. They usually have more problems with speed and / or consistency than the tier 1 commanders, and may have more cards that can hose their strategies."

@Aggro-Blaster I don't have a link to a competitive Angus/Tim list, but I've seen (not played against, but watched) a pretty powerful version in action that locked opponents out of doing anything and assembling infinite-mana combos to win with stuff like Helix Pinnacle. It was a prison deck first and foremost and the only fogs were Tim himself and Spore Frog/Kami of False Hope that could be looped with Reveillark (he might have played other recurring fogs like Constant Mists or Moment's Peace, can't remember).

I believe there was also a pretty good version that was in the SCG Commander Vs. series a couple years ago played by Danny West, can't access SCG at work though so I can't provide the link.

I loved that series. Especially the game between D. West and David Mcdarby with David on Azami and Danny on Azusa. As much I didn't like seeing Danny lose, the video managed to prove once for all that Future Sight is a pretty silly card. As if that needed to be proven, or anything.

That series is still pretty great, and they tend to play fun and interesting decks over super competitive decks.

I am curious as to why Basandra, Battle Seraph is tier 5. I know she isn't especially strong but she does invite some particularly interesting builds involving asserting a hold on combat phases.

Not saying she is good mind you but certainly Tier 4 material in my eyes since she can bring a lot to a deck in my opinion.

I am curious as to why Basandra, Battle Seraph is tier 5.

Sorry for the multiple posts. Didn't mean for the first to go through as I realized I had started arguing for her as a commander but I sent it by accident (I hate typing on mobile).

Bassandra is T5 for a few reasons:

The first is that she's /, one of the weakest color identities, so she's inherently at a disadvantage to start with.

The second is that in order to take advantage of the combat step and forcing creatures to attack, you need better creatures on the field than your opponents, so a large portion of the deck needs to be devoted to combat ready creatures, but... Bassandra doesn't directly provide any support to those creatures the way a commander like Jor Kadeen does, so that puts a large amount of the onus of how your deck functions on the cards you draw from your 99, which is not a great indicator of consistency.

Lastly, a big issue with her is that it's hard to break symmetry on her ability. You're playing a deck that's focused on the combat step, but such a deck frequently wants to cast spells during combat, and more than likely it's not something your opponents even care about, so really she's hindering you more than she's hindering your opponents. Basically, strike 3.

All in all, Bassandra pretty much exemplifies what a T5 commander should look like, where you can build a deck around her if you really want to, and it might not be terrible, but it's also not going to be very good.

Also, I've been thinking we should talk a little more about Omnath, Locus of Rage before dismissing him out of hand. I think a finely tuned version of his deck might be able to consistently win the turn after playing him. Putting Blade of Selves on him is pretty likely to win you the game in multiplayer, and if you focused really hard on making sure his enablers were out before you played him (Doubling Season, Ashnod's Altar, Perilous Forays, etc.), you might be able to goldfish consistent early/mid game wins.

What about a deck that counters all your cards while making fliers? For such a brutal and consistent lock, how can Talrand, Sky Summoner not be considered tier one?

Also, Maelstrom Wanderer can be built in such a way that he wins every game unless an opponent can counter two spells on turn 6. He would be tier zero if that tier existed. See Maelstrom Wanderer: Kills 99.9% of Decks! for explanation.