The Locust God is waaaaay too low of a tier. I have been working on a locust god deck and it still may be rough around the edges but I can consistently challenge my friend's cEDH decks and half the time even win. I say atleast tier 2 or 1.5

Flindsey2249 HAHA biased much...

Kiyomei - I got this:

Flindsey2249 - Fully understand your opinion, but this list is going through a lot of changes, so I think it will change, in my opinion, every deck is able to be tier 2.5, see Why Every Commander is Competitive for why.

What do you even mean you got this?

It's all still an opinion and will always be biased as CEDH can't be 100% properly looked at for now until statistics and a huge amount of data from tournaments and events (not the hey I won vs my friends who think they are CEDH kind of data) get released... which is something that won't happen anytime soon as wizards don't really support CEDH at the moment... And we are not going anywhere as long as we have Sheldon Menery who isn't involved in CEDH at all...

Sure you can believe in your "Everyone Wins everything is competitive" fairytale ... it remains and will always still be an opinion.

This list was merely made in a sense to put commanders in a certain "tier" so we can get an idea of slight power differences in speed and what not but on paper any deck from "tier 1" to "tier 3" that is sitting in a 4-man pod has the "potential" to win and perform well keeping in mind that some decks focus more on speed and others can run more control for example... the game itself it still is affected by RNG, Turn order and the unknown factor what the opponents might have kept when they saw your commander so more RNG...

Also nice Clickbait Title, Surely won't click it anymore...

Kiyomei - My data was based on a lot of data (almost a few hundred playtests, and tens of games) on the power of the 99, if I can prove a deck can handle not having a commander, then a deck could totally could run a bad commander, and still be good, that isn't biased, I collected my own data, and my results I believe prove the name. It is click-bait, but you need to do what you need to do xD

n0bunga

Well, those two (Zur/Tazri) are specific, also, I actually think Zur could be dropped for Thrasios/Tymna pretty easily, despite being a little worse.

Teferi is a stax-combo-control list that requires the combo with the commander, I was actually saying nearly 300. About 296 playtests, and most of them aren't nearly tier 1, yet are tier 2.5.

I think tier 2.5 is okay, even good for a commander like Hope of Ghirapur with being my choice for the worst commander., at least for deck-building capabilites.

All I was saying is that a bad commander helming an incredible deck could compete consitently, not syaing it is equal to or better than current lists. I apologize if you misinterpreted my stance!

Probably because you don't feel like it, but my argument only is saying Tier 3/4/5 shouldn't exist, because any of them can be built better, do you disagree?

I'm sorry, how exactly did Xira Arien get bumped down to Tier 3? She is definitely better than Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Melek, Izzet Paragon, Anafenza, the Foremost, etc. Jund storm is a viable strategy and she's one of the best to helm it alongside Prossh

No, he would be much more powerful as a stax build, like Mono-Red Stax (WECIC), every commander can be competitive, not "every commander is equally competitive to every other janky build running the exact same 99"

He only presupposes you need to run red. Neheb isn't an incredible deck, it is a deck built around the commander.

An incredible deck is a competitive one without the commander, a 99 card highlander deck. The deck I showed could drop 3 cards and be a Chandler deck with basically the same list.

Okay, I wasn't saying every commander can run every incredible deck, but a 99 card mono-red stax list can beat Neheb.

So I agree with a lot that is being said in this thread. Would it help to look at it as two different categories? You would first have to classify generic decks in all available color combinations, and all general archetype combinations. Meaning you'd go from R-Stax, R-Combo, R-Aggro ... 5C-Stax, 5C-Combo etc. Just using those individual lists to point out how commanders are tiered for that specific deck.

You would then need a separate category for strategies that are enabled by specific commanders. I recognize that this is more work but could possibly be more accurate.

n0bunga Yidris storm would be almost the exact same actually, since it rarely casts Yidris, which is an advantage to higher tier decks. The commander is a backup, and not central to the plan. Decks like Sisay, Selvala and Gitrog can outweigh their commander reliance by just being so damn good :c. I see your point though.

Well... aggro isn't exactly a competitive archetype, and beatdown is only barely a competitive win-condition Tana and Tymna Blood Pod - Primer is tier one after all.

I believe (a well supported belief, but yes, a belief) that people just want to find what the most competitive decks are, and so if a Naya Stax deck run by a command that no one cares about it better than the best high-tide list, it should be rated higher, despite not being the best Naya Stax deck.

Trying to claim decks that "use" their commander and decks that aren't need separate categories makes comparing them, to figure out the best deck just more difficult, and clears little up.

What I meant was to put a deck called Generic UG Combo on the Tier list where it belongs, also have commander specific decks on the same list in comparison to each other. I guess I just meant more adding another category of decks to the existing list.

I can run a commander and never use it... it is really easy, trust me, you just have to do this thing called... not casting it.

Yeah.. it is a deck with stuff... I think most decks are decks with stuff whether or not they are tier 1, is that an argument?

Okay, I will give you this one, I define competitive in a way I don't think most would, I just use it as the term, it is too subjective to be used though, so I will give you that.

I normally use Sensei's Divining Top to draw my kiki-combo and win. (Rings of Brighthearth lets you double it's draw, drawing out your deck, the mana rocks in the let you fully cast the kiki-combo).

I get to the combo and win ~37% of games against other Tier 2.5 decks, not super high, but almost 90% of the time I win with it, yes, sometimes it gets interrupted and I have to recur it and win later, but if I resolve a couple cards of stax, the deck is going to win given time.

I agree with your Yidris thing, but there are plenty of games the deck can win without it.

Hello, Please, take a look at those 3 decks and see if they fit on the list.

Widow's Storm (Ishkanah Paradox Scepter) https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/widows-storm-ishkanah-paradox-scepter/

Krav & Regna Bomber Nauseam (Storm) https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/krav-regna-bomber-nauseam-storm/

Enter the Infinite Jodah (Full Combo) https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/enter-the-infinite-jodah-full-combo/

Thank you!

Kiyomei- I do believe that everyone is biased towards their own commanders no matter how good or bad, but I truelly believe that The Locust God is underrated at tier 2.5. I myself do not only play combo and actually prefer playing fun decks that make the game interesting. Some of those commanders are not great but hey they're fun and I recognize how good the card is even if it is my own commander.

Well... I am biased about my own decks, however I think it is different, I always think my decks (paper ones) generally suck, even though I don't remember a loss, but if I get a turn 4 win, when I want it turn 3 normally (despite the statistical fact, a deck that averages wins turn 3.4 will get turn 4 wins occasionally), I think my deck needs a lot for tuning and work.

Not the worst problem to have, but I wouldn't call my paper decks competitive, I mean, they work in their meta, but online they wouldn't really do all that well, it'd be like Tier 2.

I'd like to remind you that my example build listed for Ramos (t2) isn't even Ramos anymore but Najeela. I'd say the deck got quite a lot better by having a commander that really does something for the deck, so it might go to 1.5

And so the grind begins:

- T4. Cute card. Works okay with Smokestack. Relies on an opponent not running many creatures, which is reasonable in cEDH.

- T4. I can't think of a reason for it to be higher. For five mana, you can accomplish a lot more than Windgrace.

- T4. Basically a 4-mana do-nothing. Abilities are decent but not noteworthy.

- T2.5 at minimum. Goes infinite with Paradox Engine. Probably some other fun uses (extra points for Candelabra of Tawnos).

- T4. Unless someone sees something I don't, there are not many applications for UR tokens besides Mechanized Production.

- T4-5. Fumiko is in T5, so I decided to bump this up one. Probably still T5, though. Link to card translation.

- T5. Like Ludevic, DON'T GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS CARDS!!!

I don't agree on Xantcha. She could sit in the command zone until we are ready to sink our infinite mana (i.e. from Worldgorger Dragon). This could be a quite fast t2 kill.

T1 -> Land -> Entomb on Worldgorger Dragon.

T2 -> Land -> Animate Dead on Worldgorger Dragon, generate infinite mana, keep everything in exile. Use mana to cast Xantcha, give it to any player and proceed to draw as many cards as you possibly can (don't stack too many triggers, because when the opponent dies, Xantcha gets back to you, and you would kill yourself with the triggers). Cast any X spell from your hands with the leftover mana (Exsanguinate, Walking Ballista… lots of possibilities here). Bonus points if you don't even need to cast your commander and already have an X spell in hands.

Not the best commander ever printed, but I think this can go places. merrowMania

cool 2 more jund commanders that no one will care about.

To continue my thoughts on Xantcha, I would put her on par with Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, maybe even higher. Grenzo plays well into a Doomsday deck, but when it comes to generating infinite mana and winning from there, we need to include sub par cxards in the deck in order to let them go to the battlefield instead of plain dying (Walking Ballista can't be put on the battlefield with Grenzo because he has a base power of 0 and will die as a state based action).

She can also combo during your Worldgorger loop even if you get her back once the opponent is dead (when her + Animate Dead enters the battlefield, put Animate Dead on the stack first, then her on top, give her to another player before Animate Dead comes back so she won't get exiled, continue generating mana, kill another player... rinse and repeat).

I will definitely brew her as I see potential in this commander. It can also play politics quite nicely, if you can't do anything else than give her to the Ad Naus player, well... at least that's that.

I know giving cards to opponents is bad, but 99.99% of the time she will sit in the command zone and wait for you to have infinite mana. If you manage to generate infinite mana and no one has win the game yet or has been able to generate in finite mana, that means they won't be able to benefit from this card and you will be the only one able to. Maybe they will draw a card or two, and even if it is a slight risk, you should still be able to win from there.

whats the ruling on the esper planswalker?