baea1996 no idea man...

chessdude13 that would fall under, "Casual"

How Circu, Dimir Lobotomist got's into Competitive? Is there something I didn't mind?

This list seems a lot cleaner than the other tier list. Theres a few commanders in the comp section that have me scratching my head though...

I too was wondering about Ishai. I mean even though I'm not into cEDH, I can't remember if I ever saw it seriously discussed as a strong pick, even in the "75%" EDH...

JohnnyCRO i mean i suppose you can marry him to vial smasher and make a pretty good As Foretold tempo/control list...but it just doesnt feel competitive

The more i re read that idea the more i want to do it...lol

Okay colors, but wouldn't it be inconsistent not put Garza Zol in that tier as well for colors? Sure Garza Zol is straight up not very useful if you plan to play Grixis Storm, but Emmara 1.0 isn't exactly useful either.

Reveur - I think it has to do with the ability to play it, Palinchron and copy effects like Phyrexian Metamorph to net infinite mana to then bounce and play them to trigger Circu infinitely remove cards from opponents libraries without instant speed creature removal? And/Or some other blue, miscellaneous, card combo to infinite draw/lab man a win.

I personally have a hard time understanding how Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is "Competitive" while cards like Marath, Will of the Wild and Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind are in the "High-Power" category.

It's because if you assemble Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter , Circu wins you the game on the spot, while your opponents might get a turn with Niv-Mizzet

@Mr9Loganja

I admit the idea sounds appealing in 'regular' EDH. However I'm not sure this would justify such extremely high placement.

My opinion on Ishai;

Compared to other options in the same group, it's still underwhelming. I'd rather play Tymna + Kraum if it's for the colors.

Another issue is its relationship with Thrasios, the best partner commander out there. Part of Thras/Tymna power is that Tymna opens up 2 colors for Thras of which one is black. So does Vial smasher. Ishai opens up only 1 extra color here and that color isn't black. Sure, this pairing isn't optimal. My point is that not only is Ishai underwhelming on its own, but even if balanced with the most powerful partner commander we have, it's still underwhelming.

Again, I'm not in cEDH. Therefore I cannot state fir sure that Ishai cannot be competitive. But I myself don't see it and I would like to hear the theory behind it and maybe see a sample list.

Partner commanders will always be High to Competitive not because of what they do, rather but what they accomplish by being partner commanders, which is having choices of color vs being forced into one bad commander just for the colors.

Trashios plus any partner anyday

Seems interesting that Mad farm didn't get onto the competitive section...

Honestly, Thrasios is the best partner, with Tymna second, Tana third, and the 4th being Kraum probably, with Tymna being exceedingly good because of how it doesn't share colors with Thrasios, Tana, or Kraum, so it lets you play 4 colors if you pair it with any, whereas the other 3 all cross over eachother's colors. This makes me really think that overall, even though in terms of power level, Thrasios is the best, the partner that will appear the most in competitive decks is Tymna due to color versatility. That is why Thras/Tymna and Tana/Tymna are such powerhouses, and Kraum/Tymna is really sweet too. Tymna also isn't much worse on its own merits than Thrasios, much more decks I know, such as Najeela lists, and many stax lists run Tymna in-deck, and few run Thrasios in-deck, it is almost always a commander.

I am really just saying that with all of these things, Thrasios isn't clearly much better in any regard than Tymna, it is just combo-potential that Thrasios brings out, as a big-mana dump, with very minor potential value outside of that (not so say none).

Wait... Anafenza, the Foremost is tier 4? I would at least claim tier two, it is great, it shuts off Druid, Dredge, Breakfast Hulk, and so many other decks all on its own, and fits incredibly well in a hatebears, staxy abzan list, better than Gaddock Teeg IMO because of the great tutors incolor.

Anafenza, the Foremost Jerk (cEDH Stax Primer) is a quick write-up I put together in the last hour or so.

MasN - while that is true, you're still looking at a 4 card combo. Circu, Dramatic Reversal, Isochron Scepter and a mana rock that produces 2 mana such as Sol Ring.

Marath + Doubling Season + Ashnod's Altar wins by itself with infinite creatures or burn. 3 card combo.

Niv-Mizzet + literally any curiosity effect can win on the spot. 2 card combo. 3 if you play Laboratory Maniac for the back up play.

There are plenty of commanders that have similar lines of play. The built in versatility and available redundancy of Marath and Niv-Mizzet decks FAR outweighs that of Circu. Tutors in black, sure. But outside of an instance where you play Dramatic Scepter combo or the one I mentioned earlier, Circu doesn't fall into the ability to take out a table like the other 2 can.

If removal takes out the key pieces of Circu, I don't see it having the ability to recover. There are too many alternate lines of play for the other 2 to be dismantled completely. Without the dramatic scepter combo, and a palinchron/great whale infinite bounce/mana combo, what alternate way does he have to win?

Well, mana cost does matter, with IsoRev, it costs 4 mana, and mana rocks are really easy, so it is a two-card combo, because circu is free to cast in effect when you have infinite mana, and so Circu is a sweet wincon. Thrasios is generally better, but takes more cards in-deck, so I see the use for either,.

Thanks SynergyBuild! Also I do agree with your definitions when it comes to edh.

The reason is twofold, while the card draw is subpar, the ramp is worse, and countermagic isn't great either, you can makedo with subpar of all of those, given you can at least have some decent consistency with cards such as tutors, and good lands, while you can only run about 3 duals in Ravnica, Dissension, Guildpact, Return to Ravnica, Guilds of Ravnica, Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze for UR, there are also a few cards that help fix that cost some mana to do it, and so are filters, that alone won't let you averagely cast Niv Mizzet until turn 7 or so, and because of that, we can't rely on ever casting Niv Mizzet.

The second reason is that their is no real good two-card combo inset, and so with all of the digging, you won't get to a win, not to mention that controlling all three opponents with stax is something that the cards in those 7 sets can't do. Only ~25 cards in your colors could work from those sets, such as Izzet Charm, Steam Vents, and Cyclonic Rift, the rest are nearly unplayable.

Apologies, because the list sounds really vorthos and all!

This deck (not mine) seems like Shalai, Voice of Plenty should be pushed to High Power. Whatcha'll think? mtggoldfish link

So I have to say Anafenza the Foremost at tier 4/Mid-Power is laughable. She is arguably on par with Karador in the same shell, only the abilty to hose other GY decks from the CZ...not to mention she directly wins from chaining her into Birthing Pod. Even budgeted she threatens wins turn 3, non-budget we are looking at turn 1 P. HULK wins.

Absolutely by no means is she worse/less powerful than Ephara, Bruna, Freyalise, Hapatra...ect... Your way off base with this one.

I would say that Anafenza, the Foremost is comparable with a Gaddock Teeg Stax deck, and may even be better at fulfilling the Stax role with the shared colors as well as black for the tutor support. I don't think mid-power is appropriate for Ana, not to diss Teeg or anything but I think they're both on par with each other and fit into the high-power category.

Nah, Gaddock Teeg stops how many decks? What some storm payoffs like Aetherflux Reservoir? so it'll make Zur the Enchanter use a Snap on it on combo turn, big deal.

Really it sometimes hurts Captain Sisay's Paradox Engine and Teferi, Temporal Archmage's The Chain Veil occasionally, and most decks have good long-game and don't need to combo out immediately, waiting to remove it.

What decks do they need to stop? Protean Hulk, Hermit Druid, The Gitrog Monster, all 'when this creature dies' triggers, Most Pod lines with Karmic Guide, all of the reanimator/Worldgorger Dragon lines, like Kess Twin with their silly Intuition for Laboratory Maniac, Demonic Consultation & Reanimate or Buried Alive for Phyrexian Delver, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and Deceiver Exarch. It hurts so much of the fast-combo decks, and is in incredible hatebears colors, I don't think it is just 'on par' with Gaddock Teeg, Gaddock Teeg would have to be lucky to be 'on par' with Anafenza, the Foremost.

Oh yeah, with Captain Sisay, Anafenza, the Foremost also shuts down the main Paradox Engine, Bontu's Monument, Mikaeus, the Lunarch/Saffi Eriksdotter, Captain Sisay, Bow of Nylea line for infinite damage by constantly recasting Mikaeus, the Lunarch/Saffi Eriksdotter from recurring it.

SynergyBuild Ana effectively shuts down all graveyard decks, and Teeg can be ran as a Hatebear in the 99 which is easily fetchable via tutors with the black splash in Abzan colors. The more I think of it though, the more I like Ana for the Hatebear role than I do Teeg. I'm just saying that Teeg has earned his spot in the high-power category, but Ana deserves to be in there too.

Yeah, I have found Anafenza to be extraordinarily powerful as it is out of bolt range, it pumps the team on aggro, has synergy with Devoted Druid to make additional mana, and is just generally a sweet commander with the colors and build being a good mix of Legacy Death and Taxes and Maverick.

Love it to death and am a bit biased, as it is one of my newer builds and has been a blast to test against the fast combo decks.

Thank you for moving Scarab Gid up. Having him in the same tier as The Scorpion God really bugged me (pun intended).

I feel Aurelia, the Warleader belongs in the same tier as Godo, Bandit Warlord under High Power

Godo is faster and easier to hate of the board. Aurelia is slower but is able to take more hits thanks to white. Both are very consistent generals for Helm of the Host combo, and in my experience, having one over the other is more personal preference rather than winrate when using optimized lists.

Here is the list I use for Aurelia for reference, can also be used as an Aurelia decklist if this thread needs one

MAGA (Make Aggro Great Again)