Soren841, thanks. I completely missed the sac ability.

Soren841, thanks. I completely missed the sac ability.

No clue why Ishai is tho

Outside of boring tutors in the zone like Sidisi, Undead Vizier or Razaketh, the Foulblooded, what are the best mono black commanders? I'm thinking of making Chainer, Dementia Master and using all the big mana black ramp like Crypt Ghast and Extraplanar Lens along with sac outlets to loop creatures like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Mindslicer and Meteor Golem in and out of the GY.

This list only has Chainer in mid power though so idk. Think he deserves high power status?

Aphoticate hmmm seems like this list hasn't been updated in a while, but the idea was pretty cool..

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Aphoticate Toshiro Umezawa plays extremely similarly to that strategy for big mana wins, but it's important to consider that strategy is extremely fragile and is not very resilient to interruption. I think Chainer may be better for the role, but I can't say for certain that he deserves to be pushed up to a higher tier.

I've been toying around with optimizing a Dralnu Storm cEDH list and I was wondering what you guys thought of him moving up to Competitive from High Power? I can post my list that I'm working with in a bit, just trying to figure out where to fit a Timetwister if at all, but yeah I'm just putting up the finishing touches on it so the list should be up shortly. My second time goldfishing the deck I won on turn 3 with a Doomsday line and I believe turn 2 wins are possible, but not as likely. It feels really consistent so far in testing and I would appreciate the feedback when I can post my list in a little bit here to optimize the deck even further, cheers all.

Here it is:

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This is an extremely rough cut of the deck since I haven't done a whole lot of playtesting yet. I think it plays very similarly to a Kess, Dissident Mage Storm list making it rather comparable. Paradox Engine and mana rocks allow you to keep casting spells, while Dramatic Scepter is a sort of backup to generate potentially infinite mana and more importantly infinite Storm count. Aetherflux Reservoir can nuke players after you gain an obscene amount of life, and Mind's Desire is spicy enough to keep the gears turning. There are several Doomsday lines you can set up as well, but I'm sure you've all seen these types of interactions before. Dralnu is really here for support, and isn't entirely necessary in assemble the win conditions; however, he can be really helpful and has a lot of fun interactions with the deck. I know he lacks red like Kess and Jeleva have, but I mean those decks only really splash red in their Storm lists and the color feels almost absent aside from Wheel of Fortune and some added utility spells. I'll shut up now, let me know what you guys think because I believe Dralnu is considerably Competitive tier worthy and I'd like to hear what you guys have to say. Thanks!

He's too expensive and requires tapping, while lacking red. I think High Power is his home.

Soren841 That's fair, but I mean I don't think the tapping requirement is a huge crutch considering Paradox Engine interacts really really well with him by allowing for multiple flashbacks in a single turn and just keeps the Storm count going up. I get what you mean to an extent regarding his mana cost, but to be fair he's only 1 CMC more than Kess and Jeleva, and take for example Oona who is in the same color combination as Dralnu. She costs even more than him yet she's still considered tier 2. I can't help but feel as if the deck I drafted matches the criteria described in the Competitive category and I don't think I'm biased in saying so. I know my list could be optimized further, but I don't play cEDH normally so I'm not entirely sure what else should be replaced in my list, so that's why I'm reaching out here to you guys to see if I can further improve the deck even more with advice from those who are more experienced with cEDH.

EDIT: Wait, my deck is actually really similar to the Oona Storm list in the competitive section. That's odd though, it seems to me that Dralnu offers more support to the strategy than Oona if they shared similar, if not the same 99.

DangoDaikazoku Oona is an infinite mana outlet in the CZ. The tapping is bad bc it means u can't use it the turn u cast him (unlike Kess). His ability also targets (unlike Kess), making him more vulnerable to grave hate. And that 1 more mana is relevant. The difference between 4 and 5 is an important one.

So I read that Liliana, Heretical Healer  ^Flip deck and I'm not understanding how it can possibly be considered High Power. It's fun and neat but you really gotta jump through a bunch of hoops to flip her and the payoff just isn't worth it imo. And I'm not just saying that with no experience. I made a Liliana Dual Commander deck years ago, which granted is a totally different format but I understand the hoops that need to be jumped through. I would love to be shown why I'm wrong. I'm always on the hunt for a better mono black deck.

And while I'm on the topic how is Erebos, God of the Dead consided high power. Hes just a glorified Greed, and greed isn't exactly killing it in CEDH.

Erebus is a stax deck,and I'm assuming Lili is too

Autocorrect is a killer

Basically anything can be a stax deck. I don't understand how these guys do it at the high power level. I might be able to see something like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet being considered high power stax as he both disrupts and has a token making ability that has decent synergy with Smallpox effects. Lily and Erebos are just noncreatures with meh card advantage in the zone. Is that really all that's required to be high power cedh? Like, I totally get that they dodge mass creature removal and that's beneficial but, I'm not seeing it as being that powerful a trait. Am I just way off? I might be able to be convinced of Erebos but Lily seems particularly bad to me. In addition to being a pain to flip the reanimator ability is limited. I know I'm biased but as far as mono b reanimator/stax goes Chainer, Dementia Master looks better to me. Maybe not high power worthy but better than Lily.

Stax commanders aren't just anything, they have to help break parity under stax. Think Teferi, Temporal Archmage untapping lands when you have a Stasis, Krenko, Mob Boss pumping out tokens to kill under enough Sphere of Safety effects while not casting anything else for victory.

Liliana, Heretical Healer  ^Flip is a great example of how to build stax in the opposite way of these previous examples. Stax in cEDH is commonly based around making casting spells impossible, because of them costing too much, or their lands being tapped, they are mana-based hate stax lists.

Nath of the Gilt-Leaf is a good example of the other side to that idea, in which you make their hands to shredded that they can't cast anything, whether or not they have mana. These have the downside of their opponents having the ability to top-deck out of a normal creature lock, but Liliana's +2 is on a walker, so not nearly as much removal hits it, and while Chain of Vapor or other bounce effects still hurt it, that is normally about it, with some minor exceptions.

These types of commanders are greatly important to supporting your gameplan of staxing out your opponents, but, like Krenko, Mob Boss, sometimes a way to win when you get a bunch of effects that stop everyone from winning normally, such as a grindy engine are required. Erebos, God of the Dead is a good example of that type of stax commander. Building a deck that can rely on an indestructible enchantment in the Command Zone is very freeing, and allows the deck to do things that are card inefficient, such as Dark Ritualling out a Trinisphere turn one, which the lost card advantage can be bought back later on in the game.

Both commanders have some level of stax synergy to them, whether or not that makes them high powered is up to interpretation and what list you are using. Black isn't the best mono-colored stax color (White or Blue are! Probably blue.) yet still give a lot of interesting synergy, such as Dark Confidant, Mindblade Render, Phyrexian Arena and other grind engines, as well as good stax cards, from the overbearing Nether Void to the classic Chains of Mephistopheles

Erebos is good in a storm meta

SynergyBuild I apologize for the hyperbole. I should have said that any general that provides you with resources is able be a stax deck. Any commander that has card advantege is able to break parity in a mass discard deck. Any commander that ramps is able to break parity in a mass tax deck. Any commander that has a free triggered or activated ability like Gyrus, Waker of Corpses or Krenko, Mob Bosscan break parity in a scenario where cards are unable to be cast. Any noncreature commander can break parity with The Abyss, Death Cloud or other mass creature removal. Any mono black general can break parity with Contamination and Infernal Darkness. Literally, not every commander can helm stax but a whole bunch can.

I'm not arguing that Liy and Erebos aren't able to break parity. I'm just unconvinced that they are able to compete evenly with other cards in the High Power tier.

Honestly a 99 card colorless, commanderless stax-combo list is able to contend with most every single High Powered deck on this list, so I am unconvinced that being able to compete with any other High Power tiered commander is something that any commander is unable to do.

Also, The Abyss is generally too weak for cEDH, I mean most combo decks other than Hermit Druid really mind it, and they just sac a dork or something. Stax decks can occasionally be hurt by it.

I think I could get behind Liliana if I didn't have to flip her first but it really slows her down and requires you to add a bunch of cards that I'd rather not if I didn't have to.

SynergyBuild, "Honestly a 99 card colorless, commanderless stax-combo list is able to contend with most every single High Powered deck on this list". I'm not buying it. When I say compete I mean have a comparable chance to win the game. No way what you described isn't at a massive disadvantage. Stax is good but I think you overrate it

Yeah, and storm is overrated IMO, trust me, there are many reasons I think that a 99 card colorless stax deck without a commander is able to compete in High Powered, not Competitive, not 'Maximum Powered,' but it is as good, relatively to almost each and every other High-Powered list I have tested out, meaning it is equal in winrate to the following lists from a set of hundreds of games against the Tier 1-2 lists:

Xira Arien Paradox Storm, Azami, Lady of Scrolls Paradox Combo-Control, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker Token-Combo, Talrand, Sky Summoner Control&Extra Turns, Gaddock Teeg Creature-Stax/Hatebears, Sliver Queen Combo, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lockout Combo, Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow turns, Zada, Hedron Grinder storm, Dralnu, Lich Lord Paradox Storm, Inalla, Archmage Ritualist Infinite Turn Combo, Ishkanah, Grafwidow Food Chain, Shattergang Brothers stax, Nin, the Pain Artist IsoRev Combo, Selvala, Explorer Returned Combo-Stax, Seton, Krosan Protector ElfBall/Druid Tribal, and The Locust God combo.

Obviously I haven't played all of the High Powered lists, but I have played enough to understand the Tier, and how they interact with the best decks in the format, not against themselves, is equal, relatively equal in terms of winrate to that of a 99 card commanderless colorless stax list.

Not all storm is overrated lol. Much Yidris hate.

I'm skeptical man. Like, I'm sure that's been your experience but it seems to me that if stax was really that strong, it would consist of 75%+ of the metagame. I'm not sure where to get objective data on this so I can't say you're wrong with certainty but in my experience that hasn't been the case. I find you really want a general that eithor breaks parity very strongly like Deveri or one that acts as a fast(ish) win con to close the game. Otherwise Stax just delays the game until the other 3 players are able to pool their resources together to kill you over time.

In full disclosure I'm not a cedh expert by any means. I used to be pretty knowledgable about competitive French 1v1 (where I actually tested Liliana) but I stopped playing around the time wizards made an official 1v1 format online. Now I just play commander casually but I try to keep up by reading/ talking on forums.