you just explained why blood pod is pretty much the only stax deck left. You can't lock down 3 other players, just delay them until you can combo

No, the best decks are generally decks like Sisay or teferi that can switch between stax or combo, or the fastest combo decks like Consultation Kess or Tazri.

All I am saying is a mediocre stax deck is tons better than a mediocre combo deck, and so the High Powered Tier could be literally every deck in stax.

SynergyBuild I think that's an incorrect analysis of the decks. You're discounting the role the commander is playing in these decks too much. Its not like the 99 works really well without the commander and the commander is just a cherry on top. The commanders are quintessential to their high tier status and the 99 basically doesn't work all that well without them. Teferi breaks parity like a total boss AND is a piece of an infinite combo. Just keep the commander alive and you win. Captain Sissay is just amazing. Recurrable tutoring in the zone has proven itself to be ridiculously powerful. The tier 1 status has everything do do with the commander and basically nothing to do with the fact she can have stax elements. Having said that, she does break parity with a free card advantage ability so I understand why people use stax cards in the 99.

It seems wrong to suggest that you can take the commander away from these decks and still expect high power performance.

Actually that's exactly what it's like.. most of the best decks (tiers 0 and 1) either don't need the commander (cherry on top: Yidris) or the commander does very broken things (Sisay, Teferi)

Sorry ya, I wasn't clear. Some decks don't need the commander. I just meant the Stax decks he mentioned do. Even bloodpod needs the 3 and 4 mana commanders to sac to grab the blink creature and kiki. Otherwise it's a lot slower to assemble the combo and easier to disrupt.

Other 3 and 4 cmc creatures exist

Yeah, and the Commander + their tuned 99 are averagely equal than a well-balanced 99 card commanderless stax list.

Yes, not any 99 random cards, a well-balanced 99 card commanderless stax list, that was made to be run irrelevant to the commander is probably equal to a well-balanced Wort, the Raidmother list.

That was all I said, I never said you can make Gaddock Teeg into Selvala, Explorer Returned and expect the same, I am saying you can make a Hope of Ghirapur stax deck that never casts Hope is equal to Wort, the Raidmother or whatever other High Powered deck in terms of winrate against the Top Tier 1-2 decks, that was all.

I was then told that I said stuff about Stax being the dominate deck, in which I replied saying I didn't think that, yet said that there are more Tier 3 stax lists that can be built than tier 3 combo lists, and never said anythign about tier 1 lists, at all.

Also, Soren841, Blood Pod is the only stax deck left? Sisay, Teferi, Augustine, Brago, Derevi, and so many more great stax lists, some Zur Varients, and so many more great stax builds, many of which, while aren't only stax decks, can demolish Blood Pod, Sisay and Teferi are a tier above on this list even.

(I totally just posted the link above like a 3-4 hours ago, but it says I didn't?)

Also... Many stax decks that are tier 1&2 do abuse the consistency of a commander that breaks parity on their stax lock. That doesn't mean a deck with enough cards inside that break parity can't be internally competitive to the point of tier 3. It is very, very simple as a concept to understand, but I feel like I must be speaking another language because no one else has been able to grasp it on this website, however hard as I try.

I want to apologize if I am getting too worked up over some random internet user's opinion on the current ecosystem of the mid tiers to a meta for a format that most people find casual, in a game that is generally dieing on a whole, on a website that only so many people see anyway, but I think it is important enough to discuss for me to do this.

SynergyBuild I don't know when Teferi and Sisay became considered stax, because they're really not. Blood pod is tbh the only real stax deck left

SynergyBuild No need to apologize, I'm actually enjoying the discussion believe it or not.

My apologies if I misunderstood you, I don't want to put words in your mouth. It just seems to me that it logically follows if a colourless commanderless deck is able to compete on par with High Power decks that it itself is High Power tier, right? Wouldn't it also mean that a deck with multiple colours and a commander that breaks parity should be a tier stronger? It would mean that commanders like Nath and Saheeli are competitive level, right? But they are only High Power so idk man. Doesn't it mean your colourless commanderless deck is really just mid-powered at best? I'm sorry if I'm coming off as an asshole here, I'm just trying to understand why you think it's so strong.

On a side note, I'd really like to see that colourless list. I mentioned Saheeli just above because you're inspiring me to make her. I'm assuming your list is full of artifacts and she is a really nice way to break parity on a board where things are getting too expensive or difficult to cast.

This is my Saheeli deck that I've built for real life as well:

Workshop Party

Commander / EDH Winterblast

SCORE: 10 | 10 COMMENTS | 936 VIEWS | IN 4 FOLDERS

The new Experimental Frenzy might be interesting there as well because it's easier to cast than future sight and you won't have a hand very quickly anyway (and everyone else as well because the focus is on getting Uba Mask whenever possible)

SynergyBuild Before it seemed like you were saying the colourless commanderless deck was on par with high power lasts. But now you said its in par with Wort who Mid Powered. Mayne that's where my misunderstanding is?

Wort is Highpowered on this list, that is your misunderstanding, nothing on me mate.

Just back online, few things to go over, first I will write up that colorless list, as a copy of my MTGO version, but might cross-reference it, secondly the reason that other, almost strictly better commanders like Saheeli aren't necessarily greatly impacting the outcome, and so a commander like Hope of Ghirapur might be positioned in the same tier, due to an extremely small change in winrate.

I assume it is for this reason exactly that Wort and Teeg are positioned in the same tier, while I would claim that Teeg is better when built properly, I doubt that the winrate is substaintial enough to reclassify the tier it is under.

SynergyBuild idk what to tell you bro. Wort is clearly in "4. Mid Power" on this list. Just scroll up.

Wait my bad. Looking at the wrong Wort lol

Ugh... you know, at a certain point... I think everyone has their limits, man I just woke up and I want to curl up and go to sleep again...

Here is the list, super simple to pilot, mulligan till you get stupid payoff and stupid ramp, cast payoff, turn two Possessed Portal + Turn 3 Uba Mask and Null Brooch or something silly stupid.

I think this is the list at least, from memory, could be wrong: Uba Stax (99 Card, Colorless, Commanderless Stax)

Why do you think the game is "generally dieing on a whole" ?

Oh, just that the growth of the game is dwindling. Kind of sad. I mean, it could get more popular, but TCGs in general are a format that is more prone to seeing online play than paper play over all, in terms of what is growing, Hearthstone is a good example of it.

MTG has tried to get moving onto online, MTGO and Arena to start, but their progress is slow on Arena and MTGO is also dieing, so I am unsure of it overall.

Trust me, the game won't die all together anytime soon, but I assume cEDH might, because while EDH as a whole is popular, much of the playerbase for EDH doesn't play or outright despises cEDH, claiming us competitive players are ruining the format.

It just doesn't look good overall, hopefully I am wrong though.

Anyone tryna give suggestions for my Rakka deck? :P Rakka cEDH?. Idk if it's good enough to bump Rakka to High Power but worth a try.

"The growth of the game is dwindling." Where does this come from?

Hearthstone is an online-only TCG with many core mechanics built around that functionality. It's also much simpler than Magic: The Gathering.

The mods of this list and many others have done great work to galvanize and grow the cEDH community - How is it at all constructive to insinuate that it is dying??

The rate of growth can go down without the game dying. it's just not growing as fast (perfectly normal) and makes the game look like it's less popular, when in reality it's just because there are less people that don't play than when the game was new (again, makes sense)

I agree that the growth of the game is dwindling, at least the paper version is. My last playgroup transitioned entirely to MTGO and the same thing is happening in this new playgroup of mine which is sad. The cost of playing is just hard to keep up with in a cEDH environment so a lot of people ditch paper for online, and I'm just stating this from my own personal experience playing. I prefer to physically own cards because I like the whole feel of it but I don't know, I can see how playing online is a more cost effective way to continue playing but it never felt the same to me.

Tbh the cost is easy to keep up. Once you have the staples there aren't many new cards worth much that break into the format

If cedh dies it will be because of the printing of partners and the unbanning of protean hulk in quick succession.

Eh.. tbh just ban Flash. If it dies I think it'll live on with an independent banlist.. my only fear is it'll end up like French because of people who don't understand balance vs power, and are afraid of a strong format.