michaelvdhout

please do more research before criticizing other people's work.

Consultation Kess can also win via:

Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal + Copy Artifact + Swan Song

you can go into this with:

Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal + Voltaic Key Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal + Copy Artifact + Any Draw Spell

If you can repeatedly draw your whole Deck (possible with both combo's) you can go for Grasp + Timetwister to mill all your opponents to exile.

With Grasp and Kess on its own, you can Take any 2 Card Combo from opponents Deck (Angels Grace Ad Nauseam). Or take the Lab Man from someone other.

I don't play the Deck. I simply look at the list and think longer about it than 3 seconds.

To Sisay: Stax is Plan B. If you fail to Combo of, you switch to Plan B. Stax Decks often play pieces that are not ideal for they own gameplay (Bloodpod play's a Blood Moon in a 4 color shell).

michaelvdhout Carpet checks nonbasics with the island land type, Hushwing Gryff affects ETB's, not cast triggers like Paradox Engine, Ethersworn Canonist shuts down 14 out of the 18 tier 1 lists's combos, as long as it sticks.

I will admit, the list thaqt is up there isn't my favorite, and I have argued repeatedly with biopouvoir over some of the card choices, but respect the list there enough to understand its power level. It is very good, not as you state. My personal list is Sisay Primer (Stax-Combo), it explains all of the card choices and even how to play the deck.

I'll admit you are right, Kess can be a bit of a glass cannon, and even with all of the great interaction, when your Chain of Vapor gets Mental Misstepped as they draw their card off of a cantrip on an empty library and a Laboratory Maniac, all off of a Demonic Consultation and Kess, Dissident Mage turn 3, with no one else having up a removal spell, the deck wins.

It wins off of speed and consistency of combo alone, and though like you, I was suspicious of it in comparison to its Grixis Twin counterpart, I played against it multiple times, and was sometimes thoroughly crushed, It is just a really fast deck at what it does, and unlike some decks, it gets its combo, it isn't a maybe, it will get it. (I mean technically it is a maybe, but the deck runs so much to get the combo, and has such a stupidly good commander for the job it almost always has the combo.)

Also, there are two decks located under Kess, of which are Consulation, the deck you complained about, but also a really efficient Kess Storm deck. I like both, but Kess Storm is actually my favorite, despite me thinking it to be worse than Consultation in terms of consistency, however Dark Ritualing, then recasting it from the graveyard to get 5 black on turn 4, after you cast Kess, Dissident Mage off of a 2 CMC Rock, previously countering spells and/or removing stuff, then casting an Ad Nauseam, winning the game off of a 5 mana draw 30 or something stupid xD. It is great.

Also, asking others to do research for you, when you haven't done a ton is a little rude.

SynergyBuild I still question why Kess Storm is tier 1 (tier 0, whatever) while Jeleva and Yidris are below that? And they insist on having that dumb Yidris Doomsday list up there instead of real Yidris decks.. seems kinda dumb

Soren841 all lists for a commander are underneath the highest ranked version of it. So while Kess is tier 1, storm is really only Tier 2, IMO.

That is why.

SynergyBuild is exactly right. I honestly don't bark at the distinction between tiers 1 and 2 all that much because they all feel like part of the same category, except tier 1 highlights the "best" commanders essentially.

Also I don't know if the mods missed the Anafenza, the Foremost discussion, but I think those who participated in the discussion came to an agreement on moving her from mid to high power. I don't think she really belongs in mid for several reasons that I don't want to touch on again, and I was just wondering if we could be expecting a potential tier shift.

DangoDaikazoku last revision was a month ago, this place is pretty dead.

SynergyBuild I wish that wasn't the case, and that the owners felt more active and involved. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes at all, but I really would like to see the owners in the discussion of the page more often at least. Although I know people get busy and can't monitor and update a list as extensive as this one as often when ya know, we actually all have real lives outside of this site of course so it's understandable in a sense. Except often times I can't help but feel as if at least one of the mods could simply pop in once every couple weeks and keep us posted.

I'd think instead, a better solution would be to switch to a different list. I am not involved enough in cEDH to do it, I am an omniformat player, but even while some others have tried, no one really has followed through, at least in a meaningful way.

SynergyBuild but Yidris and Jeleva storm are probably good enough. I've beaten Sisay multiple times with Yidris.. even through stax.

SynergyBuild lol I had actually been deep in the works of updating a new list before they had transitioned to the tier descriptions and I was right about to take it off private when they updated this one. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to put that idea back on the table again, but I truly don't have the time to invest into a list of that capacity on my own anymore. Maybe after finals are over and I'm out of college until next semester I can make a brand new page based on the one I was developing, but ideally I would like to get a couple people to help out with the maintenance of it though.

SynergyBuild What is the highest ranked version of Kess? Stax?

Oh nvm I see the consultation decklist. Idk why but I didn't think this newer updated list had decklists.

Aphoticate sometimes, more often then I would like to admit (like with every single comment of yours), I think you are a cEDH poser and have no clue as to what you are talking about.

I mean really, Kess Stax?

n0bunga - Yeah, Consultation is wildly considered a better version of Grixis Twin due to the increased consistency. A lot of the deck is just more of the ramp, card draw, interaction, tutors, etc. that the Twin Combo took up.

DangoDaikazoku, that sucks man, I would love to see one when you can though. I am not invested enough in cEDH to keep up with the current meta, and honestly haven't played since a week ago, but that is because I have had some IRL stuff taking precedence.

Soren841 never claimed they weren't good, just that a Damping Sphere can hinder any one of them enough to triple Time Walk them for unless they can reasonably counter it or Abrade it immediately. Without that, they need to tutor an answer often, which though only takes 1-2 turns, it then takes 1-2 turns for them to storm off again, same with a lot of other tax effects.

If you drop a Trinisphere after the Damping Sphere was removed (or Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Stony Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Rule of Law, Stasis, Arcane Laboratory, etc.) they can be effectively drop-kicked in the jaw turn after turn.

Sucks man, I love storm, just can't trust it won't get staxed out. More midrange combo like Yisan can get around a lot, but are too slow to get out of other removal, and a cursed totem is a death sentence. Even decks like Animar that can make stuff cheaper still fall to a lot, and the only other fast decks that handle stax super well are like Hulk/Food Chain/Druid that can get around a lot, are either so fast they can go off like turn 1-2 before the heavy hitter stax cards hit the table, are unaffected by Trinisphere or Rule of Law like many Hulk combos, or have so much interaction to stop the hate, and opposing interaction, and also so much consistency like Kess that they can play the combo and control player at the table.

This covers a lot, I mean Sisay/Teferi are the stax decks, Najeela, Tazri, Kess, Thras/Tymn, and Yisan are already gone over, in tier one at least on this list only Frogger wasn't covered.

Frogger is such a card combo to hate out, while yes, you can totally think of it as a graveyard deck and run your Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, but not much else will affect it, like Grafdigger's Cage isn't gonna do a ton, is it? Scavenging Ooze and the Ravenous one can do some... but the one Gaea's spell that acts as the Eldrazi Titan can still survive it, so it'll be fine a lot.

SynergyBuild I've said it before and I'll say it again. I used to play 1v1 competitive (french) and I currently play more casually. I genuinely don't consider myself a cedh expert or even player by any means. If you want to consider that a "poser" then so be it. I just like to follow these threads and ask questions to see what the cedh crowd is up to.

That said, why not Kess Stax? Im sure there is some way to play her and break parity. Perhaps mass discard effects? I wouldn't have expected it to be very powerful but then again I didn't expect a 99 colourless commanderless deck to be very powerful eithor so clearly I underestimate Stax. I still don't really understand how that deck wins but I'll take your word for it that it does. I only asked because I've never seen a non storm Kess list before so when you said storm wasn't the best way to play her I was curious what was. My bad for not seeing the linked decklist.

SynergyBuild I've said it before and I'll say it again. I used to play 1v1 competitive (french) and I currently play more casually. I genuinely don't consider myself a cedh expert by any means. If you want to consider that a "poser" then so be it. I just like to follow these threads and ask questions to see what the cedh crowd is up to.

That said, why not Kess Stax? Im sure there some way to play her and break parity. Perhaps mass discard effects?

Sorry for the double post. When I hit post my internet said I lost connection so I went back and posted again

Aphoticate perfectly fine double posts happen to the best of us xD.

Now onto why I doubt Kess Stax will work in tier 1.

TO start, 99 card commanderless colorless stax was a Tier 3 deck meant to prove every deck is worth tier three when built competitively. I would never call it tier one as is.

Now, mass discard? I would want some examples of that. I mean, I would love to see that.

I mean, Oppression, Bottomless Pit, and Necrogen Mists aren't exactly great unless you are really a black stax deck like Nath, and nath is about it. I mean monoblack stax can use it, but Kess breaking parity on that isn't really worth it.

You could run some good Blue/Red Stax (Blood Moon, Stranglehold, Back to Basics, and Arcane Laboratory) and just like have a couple cards that make opponents discard cards, but that is about it.

Also, you claim now that you aren't a cEDH guru, yet before you claimed that the reason behind Ishai's impressive showing in the competitive tier was due to her commander damage ability, and that with Vial Smasher, until I explained that outside of Yuriko/Edric/Blood Pod, a cEDH deck that deals damage through combat in general is bad, and you caved. (November 20th as archived)

Or, when you kept insisting that Wort was a tier 4 deck on this when it was listed Tier 3, and claiming that my 99 card colorless commanderless stax lsit was impossible, before again, caving under the realization you were wrong. (November 9th as archived.)

Or, when you claimed that Liliana, Heretical Healer  ^Flip and Erebos, God of the Dead weren't worth the spot they were given, until Soren841 and I explained to you how breaking parity and mono-black stax worked. Guess who caved? Hint, you. (November 8th as archived)

Or, when you were randomly asking people on this list about decks you should make outside of cEDH, completely wasting the use of the comment system, forgetting that the forums exist. You also dissed on Sidisi and Razaketh a bit. (November 6th as archived)

Or, when you wanted to know about Nath elfball, claiming it was too janky for cEDH, and I had to explain to you how the deck worked, and that tokens were a wincon, even without Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest. After I explained, you didn't respond. (October 23 as archived.)

Or, when you claim that Anafenza, the Foremost, a powerful stax hatebear deck that can shut down tons of Tier 1-2 combo decks on her own without an answer was 'unsynergistic' and Abzan Falconer was better than Gaddock Teeg. You caved to DangoDaikazoku, ForsakenxEDHx and me (October 20th as archived)

Or, when you enthusiastically claimed that something absurd was true or something considerably powerful was trash, someone else or me explains with common, rational sense that you are wrong.

And you cave

(Always as archived)

Do you see why I think you are conceited and have no idea what you are talking about?

n0bunga I respect that, however there already is a midrange Kess deck that is competitive; Kess Turns. A mostly forgotten powerhouse of a deck that though is weaker than Consultation, is one of the most perfectly balanced examples of a cEDH Midrange deck, my most standards.

SynergyBuild Between semesters I'll get back to working on an updated list because I know this is a valuable resource people should have available to them, and I hate to see commanders being misrepresented by a tier standing especially when there is a consensus to change certain placement standings and no action is taken for months at a time. I'm a busy boy, but I try to get on here as much as I can and I think that I alone could make updates accordingly based on a comment section like this more frequently than the owners of this list. I play casually for the mostpart nowadays, but I understand the cEDH meta pretty well. Although I would like some cEDH players to collaborate with and help out with the maintenance of such a list, simply because I don't think I want to be the only one to make a call on tier shifts.

Anyway, Aphoticate, I'm not trying to be rude or anything by saying this but SynergyBuild made some very valid points about your activity on this page, and honestly ever since that Anafenza discussion in October, I have abstained from any discussion after seeing you post on this page. Maybe that's a bit petty of me, but I think it was a good decision to spare myself the numerous headaches. I felt like that single discussion I contributed to with you regarding Anafenza was endless and I don't know your intentions, but it came across as if you twisting my words every time and undermining my thoughts on the subject, just to get the last word in to make yourself look right. The discussion completely diluted itself to simply restating almost verbatim what had already been said what felt like a hundred times over until you finally decided to agree with your opposition. I am normally always open for discussion, and I welcome any player to get involved, but I take a lot of issue when you constantly misconstrue other peoples' words and strongly hold onto your opinions by asserting them as factual. It comes across as demeaning and belittling.

SynergyBuild If my previous "tone" in comments sounded conceited Or like I was coming from a place of CEDH expertise, I sincerely apologise. My goal was/is to simply question how and why certain decks where placed higher or lower than made sense to me. I voiced my reasons for why I didn't understand their placement and when someone presented a logical answer for why they are where they are, I happily "caved". Even with you, I still don't really understand why you think stax is as good as you do but I recognise you're far more knowledgeable than I so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and "caved". Its tough for me to understand a lot of a cedh placements without playing the format very often and without any sort of objective data set. Everyone is just coming at this from personal experiences. Of course its logical to give the benefit of the doubt to active players of the format, but I don't see an issue in asking questions and challenging said players.

Now I will admit to being particularly more argumentative with you specifically but that has a lot to do with how I find you extreamly condescending and it kinda pisses me off.

For Ishai, I was simply offering a possible suggestion for why someone placed it as highly as they did. I think it follows that a possible reason was primarily for the colours and it makes sense to me to choose Ishai over other options because it has (imo) a pretty decent stand alone ability. Not an overwhelmingly powerful one but enough to give it a small edge over other options. I'm not claiming its objectivly true though, just giving my thoughts on why I think its possible.

I still don't understand why Liliana is placed as highly as she is, i don't remember caving here. Erebos, sure I caved. Again, I happily gave you guys the benefit of the doubt on him but this again hinges on the concept that colourless stax is much stronger then I give it credit. I feel fairly confident that I could take out a 99 colourless stax list with a lot of my casual decklists. I tend to run a lot of removal though so maybe it's just my playstyle. BUT having said that, I recognise that you guys have far more experience in cedh and that my confidence is very possibly misplaced.

I have nothing objectively against Sidisi or Raz, I completely understand why they are placed as highly as they are in cedh. Tutors in the zone are really powerful. Subjectively I think they're boring and I personally don't want to make them but lots of people have strong decks they don't want to play.

I was unaware I shouldn't ask for "what deck to build" advice from the cedh crowd in this thread. If that's common knowledge here then my bad.

I didn't respond to your Nath explanation because I felt there was nothing more to be said. Did you want a thank you? Honestly, I think the pleasantries ship has sailed between you and I a while ago. Also, I never said Nath elfball was janky. I simply asked what peoples opinions on adding some elfball and other alternative wincons to Nath were. A single top decked board wipe could really mess up your tempo because once peoples hands are gone, it becomes difficult to make more tokens quickly. I didn't like your squirril nest suggestion but decided I didn't really want to argue about it further because you were being nice for a change and I didn't care that much about it.

On Anafenza, you originally claimed she was competititve tier, the second tier on this list: "Wait... Anafenza, the Foremost is tier 4? I would at least claim tier two, it is great, it shuts off Druid, Dredge, Breakfast Hulk, and so many other decks all on its own, and fits incredibly well in a hatebears, staxy abzan list, better than Gaddock Teeg IMO because of the great tutors incolor - October 18, 2018 11:02 a.m." I thought she was "meh", mid powered or lower, we comprimised on High Powered. I don't really consider that caving.

Is this the type of community you want to foster here? One where you condescendingly smack down people who are interested in the format and want to ask questions or who challenge the list? You aren't even the author of this thread but it really feels like you police it in a your way or the high way type style. I don't think I've spoke all that agressively when voicing my opinionions or asking questions here so I really don't understand your animosity towards me. All I can think of is you just don't like having your ideas challenged.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

DangoDaikazoku, I have no beef with you man. If i twisted or misunderstood your words then I'm sorry. Clearly I'm conveying poor a tone. If you ask me to, I'll stop particupating in the comment section here. Im just doing it for fun and I'm sad that my actions have made you refrain from posting. Sometimes I think I just enjoy debating too much but i don't want to twist people's words in the process.

Aphoticate If I remember correctly, tier 2 was actually High Power during an iteration of this list at the time of SynergyBuild's posting of Anafenza's placement. Maximum Power was tier 0, and Competitive was tier 1, so he was in fact stating she should be at least placed in the High Power tier at the time since her list is comparable with Gaddock Teeg, another hatebear commander in that tier. Please try not to remove context from the posting. I remember it vividly lol.

I'm sorry you feel as if SynergyBuild is condescending, but I think there's a lot to be said about how text removes much of the tone of things and can be interpreted in different ways. I know when I first interacted with them I felt sort of the same way, but after actively communicating with them I found that they are a very kind and approachable person. I have gotten plenty of advice from SynergyBuild on decks and I can vouch for them for being a respectable community member. I can understand to an extent why you feel as if their actions come across as policing on this page, but when the owners are inactive on a page with this much of a following, there are bound to be others who take charge and actively contribute to discussion.

I appreciate your apology, and I'm also sorry I didn't mention or bring this up sooner. If you had an upgraded account I would have personally reached out to you via PM about that and tried to make amends instead of just not saying anything. You're fine to continue posting here, you're still more than welcome to contribute, and it's not my say to tell you to stop. I just think in the future to be more careful about how you phrase things because what I thought was twisting my words could have been a simple misunderstanding of what I said. I also think maybe everyone got off on the wrong foot, and I can understand why everyone feels the way they do about each other, but it might be best to try to start off fresh and not hold past interactions against each other.

DangoDaikazoku I'd be happy to help with you if you want.

Also, I agree that a lot of collaborators for cEDH would be useful for perfecting this. The Labman crew, and even the guys that made this page could help, just that a lot are too inconsistent in updating.

Aphoticate I accept your apology in the opener of your response. I honestly do. I also don't want to sound conceited, and apologize in return if that is how I sounded.

Yet even you admit you had argued with me, only after I tried my hardest to help your questions get answered.

The situation of you asking a question, me answering it, and then you getting argumentative about mine and others answers, such as DangoDaikazoku, ForsakenxEDHx, Soren841, etc. We have tried to help you and you almost consistently try to find faults in our answers. It is really tiring.

For the rest of this comment, I will explain myself on the thigns you question me on.

A lot were simply semantics, and while you can bring up my word use, you caving is as obvious as day on the Anafenza debate, Ishai, and it isn't smart to claim otherwise when it is archived.

Here are the quotes:

Anafenza Debate - "At any rate, I will def concede [...]" (October 20th)

Ishai Debate: - "I don't disagree with you [...]"/"That is correct [...]" (November 20th for both)

You can look through the archived discussion to find the full lines, of which aren't going back on your word.

Also, with the Lili/Erebos debate, you are right, you didn't concede on the Lili Front, instead you conceded on the Erebos front and then say that a colorless stax deck that could be helmed by Lili could be competitive.

So yes, you did concede, just without 'saying it.' But common sense logic can find that you did concede the point, in fact a larger, umbrella point instead.

Look, I haven't policed new cEDH players at all. I have said there are issue with the list (Anafenza), and you said I was wrong, you were the police.

I have supported others changes for the list as well (Ishai) and you are the one who condescendingly says we were wrong, you were the police.

So I ask you:

"Is this the type of community you want to foster here? One where you condescendingly smack down people who are interested in the format and want to ask questions or who challenge the list? You aren't even the author of this thread but it really feels like you police it in a your way or the high way type style. I don't think I've spoke all that agressively when voicing my opinionions or asking questions here so I really don't understand your animosity towards me. All I can think of is you just don't like having your ideas challenged.

Enjoy the rest of your day."

As I wrote this, DangoDaikazoku has also wrote another great comment, thank you.

Well, it feels awkward to intervene right now, but Imma post it anyways haha.

Does anyone know/have an idea of power level within tier 2 (competitive)? Like is there a well accepted opinion on which commanders are at the top of Tier 2 and who is at the bottom??

baea1996 I really just like to consider tier one as an extension of tier two, demonstrating the top commanders of the competitive tier if that makes any sense. For example, Kess is considered tier one, but Jeleva is considered tier two even though their lists are rather comparable as far as helming a storm list for example. I know a lot of people like to say if Kess is tier one, then Jeleva should be too. However, I personally disagree and I believe those placements are appropriate.

As far as the bottom goes, it's really hard to say because I have quite a bit of disagreement with what is listed in tier two right now anyway.