Wow, I was gone for 2 days... and this happens xD? Don't have fun you bunch of hooligans without me!

Gleeock - I agree with many of the other users who replied to you, DangoDaikazoku, Winterblast, Soren841, chaosumbreon87, RivenEsq, and any other users who I missed that shared my sentiment, but these decks do often win at the speeds they do in or out of a vacuum, and many show their rate of disruption, etc. I am not saying these numbers can't be taken with a grain of salt, EDH has a lot of variance, so the average draws and optimal plays under every situation is so vast no one could reasonably average them perfectly, but they are good estimates.

Now onto something that irks me about your interaction with Soren841, in which in your last comment about them, you attempt to take a moral high-ground. Now I am no god, saint, or infallible deity (despite how hard I try to be xD), so this could be just how this conversation appears, but Soren841 actually seems to be right here.

I think you can stop the troll act of trying to annoy people, over and over you talk about it, and now I don't really think it is pure irony. You look like an annoying jerk. If you want to ask who started the conversation that Soren ended with a well-worded comment that you, the condescending troll looking to annoy, claimed was condescending, it was you. So you can shut it about 'Ouch,' okay?

On the other hand, if this was irony taken to an extreme that seems a little stupid, as the very last line with the Goblin Diplomats thing indicates, I think because I could easily misread your intent, Soren might of as well, I haven't talked to them about this, so I don't know, however right now you could either be bad at showing irony, or a complete jerk. I hope it is the former, as the latter would lead me to believe the whole discussion may be useless.

I think Gleeock you might not know that when we talk about multiple mulligans we obviously mean taking them according to the normal mulligan rules: one free and then always draw one card fewer with each mulligan. After you keep, scry 1 if you have fewer than 7 cards.

That's not "mulligans until you hit a lucky start" that's a real drawback to consider when you shuffle a hand back.

• Hmm SynergyBuild, well I think if you looked at from the unpopular perspective (mine) it may look a little bit different. I opened up conversation stating that T3 averages sound like an exaggeration, arguing off of experience, inviting further debate. Soren841 responds by telling me to stop talking, because I don't know what I'm talking about... except how can I not know what personal experience is telling me? - So yes, if me speaking on experience is annoying & debate is annoying, then prepare to be annoyed further. If someone were to offer something besides heresay from podcasts or 3rd party calculators I was ready to discuss. It's like there was some sort of T2 annoyed clock on this discussion (speaking of turnclocks :) )

• Winterblast debated off well-worded personal experience & an explanation that I am not playing "true" cEDH ; chaosumbreon87 gave me some good stats + deck example & said he did not want to write up an entire analysis for me (reasonable). Soren841 responded by telling me to "take a math class" I don't think "right" or "wrong" is an issue here so much as approach: 2 were effective & have changed my opinion, the MILD snark was not. Maybe my comment on that dude block shuffling was comparable to that offhand presumption?

• With all that long-windedness, I do tend to "rattle some cages" for fun... I think it is more instigating opinions more than anything & I think a definitive troll would start hurling more insults; like, "maybe you should go to thinking school for people who don't use their headbrains & stuff". I do invite some of this on myself & I'm sure Soren841 could have done much worse.

• Can you tell Thantis, the Warweaver is my favorite commander ever? :) She doesn't usually win the war, but she invites everyone to the table (all inclusive), she's not popular, & she has a heck-of-a time being that way. Fabulous, thought-provoking, & yes, maybe a little annoying until you get to know her.

• Regarding the actual discussion: I WAS WRONG!.. Maybe I said it in too many words. I do actually agree with most the rankings above.

I don't mean for Gleeock to be attacked from all fronts here. I mean their initial contribution here was about the turn 3 clock being used liberally, but then it was explained the turn 3 clock is used assuming the deck is being goldfished and uninterrupted. It was just an honest misinterpretation of how people were throwing that concept around, and we all know that turn 3 wins while four people are at the table don't always happen because people run spells to interrupt others in order to pull off their own finisher. I wasn't at all beefing about that, it was just that I was shocked about the one mulligan rule that their playgroup uses, but I can't really argue about that because if it works for them and they're happy with it, it's not like it affects me at all.

Winterblast Thanks for providing me with an out, but I am aware of the official mulligan system (I keep digging my hole). I just legitimately didn't take that integral part of cEDH into account, because both my playgroups have not done so for a long time... It literally didn't cross my mind. So while I didn't agree with the "9 turns" or "sweet comp. Omnath" comments above, I did think: "wait a minute I've experienced several of the cited decks & they aren't averaging these times" - then I felt like those unpopular opinions could use some representation. As you pointed out though, I was the one functioning from an insular perspective; accounting for mulligans could have a large impact on average win rates. Alas, my version of Captain Sisay is bumped down a bit on a competitive scale!

• DangoDaikazoku Haha, yeah that was a good aside conversation :), you were incredulous & probably were wondering how someone could oversight a core concept... But, when you're part of a subculture of sorts you don't think you're out of place until it is pointed out.

• I can handle being attacked from all fronts, if you've played enough old-time Zelda you know that if provoked enough the Gleeock's head detaches from the body, flashes insane colors, flies around, & shoots fireballs at everything.

I meant my comment whole-heartedly:) you weren't seeming to understand that turn 3 was pretty accurate and why. (Stats causes headaches tho fyi :p)

If you've played enough Zelda you would also know that if you hit a chicken too many times, all the chickens come swarming on you. I think that's a pretty accurate analogy to what happens in this comment section every other day haha.

I guess its a sticking point for me because I work in Healthcare Informatics (I could just be really-really bad @ my job I guess :) ) - The approach you took did not make me understand any better though, if that was your intent as stated above.. Maybe "Take a course in teaching?"

Ha that's pretty accurate. Teaching is not my strength

• Ahah! tit-for-tat then mayte!! I'm cool, I'm currently taking hours of CEU's at work - so this is more posts than you will usually ever see from me. Then I slowly back into the hedges, like Homer Simpson avoiding Flanders (or a Gibdo returning to slumber??) - for DangoDaikazoku

• I am happy Captain Sisay is in the "max power" tier these days. Even when she misses on dox engine, she sure can disrupt, stax, & protect still.

I am back, Gleeock, I hope there are no hurt feelings, on any front, apologies on my part for my possible misunderstanding of the point. Hope you all are good with the current standing, which leaves this sub-discussion done.

This actually all spawned from vasarto77 saying turn 9 is the fastest win, and Gleeock, while admitting that was wrong, did want to go over how often turn 3 or whatever turnclock is used.

But we can all agree vasarto77 is super wrong, right?

• Hah! Agreed.. super-wrong.

• Also, I actually appreciate Soren841's super cool, mildly disinterested feedback. "I said that...take it as you will". :) It reminds me of The Prof, MTG Office Hours with the Soren character actor & all that desolate sounding synth music constantly playing in the background :)

• Happy whatever day you all celebrate!

Gleeock was that quote from me lol? I can't find it in the comments >-> Ty tho I guess? idk

Okay, I may not have payed attention to this list for like ten whole sets, but...Teferi, Temporal Archmage? General Tazri? Fucking Yisan, the Wanderer Bard!? What the hell happened to this list?

Too many commanders exist now, it's quite possible to just dicker endlessly about all of this. Also, if you're going to have 5 tiers, move Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker to tier 3, for fuck's sake--just check out the list I have on my profile if you want to see why.

NoOneOfConsequence you give me and everyone here a headache.

I feel like we JUST had to explain the placement of Sisay, Gitrog, and Najeela to some other person who was too ignorant to read the tier descriptions and came out swinging. I'm sorry guys, but I'm abstaining from this one lol I just woke up and the left side of my head is now throbbing with pain after reading this guy's comment. I think I'm just gonna take an ibuprofen and go back to bed.

To be honest I can't imagine how exactly Yisan can play along with the top decks either, in terms of speed and reliability. I've had some games against Yisan as well and it always felt that if he won it was basically just because everyone failed to find a simple creature removal. Does the deck really just exploit the fact that people often run low on dedicated creature removal in cEDH?

Tbh Yisan has always struck me as solidly tier 2..

Haha! I figured there'd be some more pushback with the aggressive nature of the post... although, honestly I'm going to gang up on Yisan here too! Then again I'm not actually speaking on experience with that, I'm just not sure about his turn 3-4 winningness vs. some of those others. General Tazri + food chain seems to be an extablished cEDH norm; however, in my playgroup he isn't much to write home about but I think popular opinion will smash you on that one! Teferi, Temporal Archmage also is a bit lukewarm IMO - but I think he can be difficult to disrupt/remove w/ traditional decks when he pops out early (which is surprisingly often). Based on personal observation & w/ comparison to Teferi @ this rate I would actually bump Etali, Primal Storm rush & stax up the tier-ladder quite a bit... However, he is still limited on the fact that his ability is always a gamble.

Because, turn 3 Void Winnower, turn 4 Possessed Portal may not win you the game, but boy does it make BHs pucker!

Right. As if the dream sequence of every competitive deck isn't already to play fast mana into their dumb lock/combo on turn 2. Oh, and, uhhh, hey, I didn't mention Sisay, Gitrog, or Najeela, because they actually are rather competitive (though, maybe not tier 1, but I digress), so, yeah, maybe you do need more sleep.

They definitely ARE the best this format has to offer (Sisay is questionable in relation to Jeleva and Yidris imo but still definitely tier 1)

You came in here guns blazing cussing up a storm and saying three commanders in Max Power aren't worthy of the tier listing with no actual backing to the claim. You have never contributed here before to my knowledge, at least not regularly and just from your brief time here you don't strike me as credible. Your dismissiveness came across as really ignorant and you seemed like every other fool who comes barging in here claiming X is not competitive and X is without doing their research first. I'll concede that Yisan is the odd one out in the bunch, but I believe Food Chain Tazri and Chain Veil Teferi are nothing to be barked at.

Anyway, nice comeback 13 hours after my post. I got PLENTY of sleep in that time, that's for sure.

Well, I mean... meaningful progress is not made without questions asked... but at the same time acknowledging not knowing what lead up to those decisions, then asking WTF happened in the meantime is throwing out rhetoric that people may or may not want to get into... depending on how much sleep they've had ;)