Speaking of Yidris/Jeleva storm moving up Tiers, what are your thoughts on Ramos? Too expensive/colour dependant to be Max?

And just so everyone is clear, I'm not claiming that I think he should be Max, I'm just curious what you guys think.

There's no reason to go 5c for storm other than a specific commander, and Ramos does nothing for the deck.

Aphoticate Jeleva is probably the best pure storm deck, but I am not a fan in tier 1, it is relatively consistent, yes, but I doubt that alone is what is cared about. I just think after playtesting the deck a lot, it falls to a lot of stax really hard, moreso than other combo decks, almost any stax hits it, from Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Stony Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Arcane Laboratory, Vryn Wingmare, Lodestone Golem, Armageddon, Static Orb, Stasis, Winter Orb, Rule of Law, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Notion Thief, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider, Chains of Mephistopheles, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Oppression, Bottomless Pit, Liliana of the Veil, etc.

Tons of hate hurts storm waay more than other decks, as they try to abuse the game the most, the game's anti-abusers hurt it the most in response.

I hadn't even noticed that Jeleva got taken down a peg, but (as SynergyBuild put it) storm lists do falter to an INCREDIBLY large variety of hate. Fortunately in my cedh meta even manglehorn ends up being punishing for a storm list - which is probably why I feel that Yisan should be in tier 1.

DangoDaikazoku you put it well, mono blue has a lot more synergistic and inherent interaction and it's a stronger colour. Despite this - I still feel that a list which is tuned appropriately definitely shouldn't fall below tier 2. The thing about yisan is you need to assess the threats while performing mulligans. Often sacrificing a great combo start for a grindy interactive hand instead. Yisan is incredibly consistent and able to answer/lock down a lot of decks, but it falls short of the mark because at the end of the day it is mono green.

Conversely - if we were to move yidris anywhere it would be a mistake. He's so reliant on being able to do a series of things and regardless of how tuned the deck is, the storm list is extremely vulnerable to hatebears - moreso than jeleva, despite it being able to churn out as much value as it does. The main counterargument I have against the deck is... collecting enough data about it's consistency against interaction/hate it's very time consuming and seems unnecessary - tier 2 is fine for Yidris.

Jeleva storm is great - despite it's faults - and it most certainly acts as a higher threat than yidris, so I could understand it being bumped back up.

The last breya/sharuum lists I saw were eggs and bomberman. What defined them both to being tier 2?

You say Yidris is even more weak to hatebears but I win through hatebears all the time, and is definitely not any worse than Jeleva. Have you even played Yidris storm?

Soren841 I never claimed it couldn't win through hate, (hatebears are even easier, as how easy it is to Abrade one xD) but instead as to how if I am going to hate on the Food Chain list at the table, and drop a Rule of Law, storm gets hurt too, if I drop a Rest in Peace against the Protean Hulk player, storm gets hurt too. If I hate on any deck, storm almost always gets hurt in the crossfire. That is why I am not a fan, not that it isn't a very powerful deck that can survive some of this between its removal and sheer speed, but that it often has to deal with so much, and if it does end up dealing with all of that, it often will just give the win to the combo deck or any other deck at the table in the process.

Not you, SynergyBuild facepalm plus grave hate hurts way less against Yidris, literally yawg will and noxious revival is the only recursion

CyborgAeon I'm not at all concerned about Yisan's placement to be honest. It's just that I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped down a tier. There's a lot of subjectivity that goes into tier placements and the lack of distinction between tier 1 and 2 that I can't help but feel that there just isn't a significant difference between the two tier placements, in my opinion at least.

You make good points regarding Yisan, and like Teferi you can have either fast plays or a grindier game with Stax pieces depending on the matchup and how you mulligan. Again though, it really doesn't matter to me where Yisan stands on the tier list because the difference between these tiers is so very minimal. I do think it's more powerful than Selvala, but does that put Yisan in Max Power? I can't say for certain. I thought it wasn't quite deserving of tier 1 compared to the other tier 1 generals, but I admittedly haven't seen enough in person gameplay of Yisan to get a reading on where it belongs and I shouldn't feel inclined to lean one way or the other.

DangoDaikazoku I've just never been impressed w Yisan ya know? He just doesn't have like that tier 1 feeling the way Sisay or Teferi do

Yeah, to be fair during the reshape of the list I was confused by Yisan's placement at tier 1. But I guess if there's so little distinction for some decks then maybe there should be more scrutiny given to the top tier, maybe a concise definition for what makes it the best of the best. Ie it needs to operate in a vacuum and be able to achieve it's goal consistently 80% of the time in that vacuum - with a given turn restraint. That would certainly help with the subjectivity of the topic - as it's all down to heresay.

Previously I would've happily agreed that the Gitrog list at the top of the bracket was deserving of tier 1 - but I see some inconsistencies, similar to what's seen in Yisan. So while the argument for top tier decks is contested - maybe there needs to be stricter rules on just what constitutes a tier 1 from a tier 2.

I think it's possible to just feel it. We all agree that while tier 1 is basically tier 2+, Yisan makes more sense in 2.

Why tf isn't Xantcha tier 3?

initial guess: lack of cedh brewing

secondary guess: giving your opponents a draw outlet is bad

i do think if you stick in a couple of infinite mana combos she might just make tier 2/3. brew us a list Soren841 and show me what you can do with it (no budget)

There are already plenty of WGD lists.

Soren841 Been running a Paradox Scepter Version, and actually have found a lot of success with it, happier than with the WGD lists I have seen before. It is fast, but not blisteringly fast like you may want to compete with the Thrasios based Paradox scepter decks so I can't be sure as to how competitive it is. I may tinker more with it, but I have had fun at my LGS with it as a semi-competitive political deck.

BTW easy tier 2/3

Xantcha isn't in blue though? What goes on Scepter

Anything still combos with Paradox Engine for infinite mana if a Rakdos Charm is on the Scepter xD, I also run Strionic Resonator for the same card.

So Marwyn should be tier 2. Literally just as good as Selvala, lots of smaller arguments for her being better.

Soren841 well... I wouldn't say AS good, it doesn't draw cards, I don't like it on that alone, it is very similar though, so I think there are arguments for it, I just can't bring myself to say it is equal or better.

It is as good. I've played both, goldfished bot, and played them against each other. I am importing my list now.

cEDH Marwyn Elfstorm

I think Marwyn is particularly good. I don't know that I'd say she is identical to Selvala in terms of power, but she can certainly hang. I also wouldn't say she is so noticeably worse that she shouldn't be in Tier 2. She is certainly "Competitive" and not just "High Power."

I would support her being moved up, because even if she is slightly worse than Selvala, she is still as good as others on the list since Selvala is probably one of the better "Competitive" tier decks. There is not enough of a difference between them for Marwyn to be shoved down a tier.

I'd have to playtest both against real matchups, not eachother. That is a false comparison to say: Selvala is beaten by Marwyn; Marwyn is better. No, Marwyn has to be on average better against the metagame than Selvala, and I can't bring myself to say that.

They literally both just race. The level of interaction is essentially identical. Like I said I've also played them separately and golfished.

Currently brewing Zannifar with SynergyBuild and DangoDaikazoku Vannifar Hulk