I take what I said in my last post back because what I suggested there is making tier 2 too much like tier 3 to the point where you might as well get rid of the current tier 2... Instead, I completely agree with Wagnerr in that we should move the Commanders like Uril and Omnath and Ezuri down to tier 3 and only keep decks that can actually compete with tier 1 decks in tier 2.

Alright, been reading a lot of the comments, and I think that a change needs to be made. There's a huge range of commanders in tier 2, and some of them are ridiculously better than others. For example, decks like Mizzix and Jelava are on the "high end" of tier 2, but decks like Memnarch and Reaper King (Reaper King???) are a world worse. A lot of maintenance needs to be made to tier 2, but I think that the first step is either creating tier 1.5, or shifting everything down a tier and moving most of tier 2 into tier 3.

Take for example this deck: Kaalia of the Vast. While annoying at casual tables, the deck isn't nearly good enough to fight optimized tier 1 decks, like the tier 2 description says. The same goes for most aggro commanders, such as Bruna and Marchesa. However, some weaker combo decks like Oona and Sharuum (which may need to move to tier 1) can easily hold their own at competitive tables.

Here's my opinion on which decks need to be moved to tier 1.5, and which decks should remain in tier 2.

Tier 1.5: Captain Sisay, Gaddock Teeg, Ghave, Grand Arbiter, Jarad, Jelava, Mizzix, Oona, Selvala, Sharuum, Sidisi, Planeswalker Teferi, Tasigur.

Tier 2: Arcanis, Azusa, Bruna, Child of Alara, Daretti, Both Ezuris, Jhoira, Kaalia, Krenko, Kruphix, Maelstrom Wanderer, Marath, Marchesa, Melek, Memnarch, Meren, Mikaeus, Momir Vig, Nekusar, Niv-Mizzet, Omnath, PSZ, Purphy, Reaper King, Riku, Roon, Sedris, Shattergang, Sliver Queen, Sydri, Creature Teferi, Teneb, Teysa, Titania, Uril.

If this change is made, there will be more accurate tiers for EDH. My personal opinion is that Jarad, PW Teferi, and maybe engine Sharuum should be moved to tier 1, and Oloro and Mimeo should be moved to tier 1.5. Thanks for reading.

Woah, woah, woah, WOAH.

Hold up a minute. I didn't mean to kick up a discussion on reformatting our tier system.

First off, we are NOT making anymore tiers. That was exactly the main argument people had against moving to six tiers, that we would start adding more and more tiers, and the list would get hopelessly complicated and tedious.

I, for one, do not want to give any credence to the slippery slope fallacy.

Secondly, it's okay for there to be a little bit of variance in T2. We've been discussing T1 and T2 the most because they're the most interesting, but keep in mind that this is a a tier list for ALL the commanders out there, not just the competitive ones. Some competitive commanders are going to be a little better than others, and thats ok, because they're still around the same level of ability.

Also, remember that when I suggested a change to a six tier system, it was to make tiers 3, 4, & 5 more clear, NOT for any reason relating T1 and T2. The competitive tier have remained largely the same since before that change, primarily because they were the most well monitored.

NarejED, You were the most vocal proponent against a six tier system, but you have to admit that the number of people arguing because they felt a commander they liked was rank too low has gone way down since the switch, right? Nearly all the suggestions we've been discussing since the comment purge have been about some deck-tech or combo that we haven't seen before, with sources to back them up.

What I'm saying is, the system we have right now is working really well compared to what we had before, so let's not muck it up by radically restructuring.

Leinahtan, If you want to make a competitive commander Tier list that breaks up the competitive commanders into sub-tiers, go ahead. It would probably be pretty interesting. But that's not what this list is supposed to do, because it was made to rank ALL the commanders in the format, both casual and competitive.

I'm also not a fan of moving a bunch of commanders up to T1, because it's T1. It needs to be the pinnacle of this list (and the format), and it will start to lose a bit of its mystique if we start throwing a bunch of sub-prime commanders in there.

In the particular situation we were talking about, Seton, Krosan Protector, all I was saying was that T3 should be a place for commanders that could be competitive, but have some major weakness holding them back that they don't have a reliable way to mitigate. In this case, Seton folds to an entire group of cards (boardwipes), and doesn't have a reliable way to protect itself from those cards, which would make him T3. Ezuri, Renegade Leader also has difficulty with boardwipes, but has an ability on it's commander that protects it from 75% of those cards, which is enough to keep it in T2.

Is everyone ok with that reasoning?

Yeah, I guess. I'm currently working on a list with just a tier 1, 2, and 3. I'll link it later. Also, as a past Seton player, I realized that the deck lost a huge amount of consistency with the lack of partialing, similar to most combo decks. The deck's pieces are even worse than Ezuri's, due to the relative lack of Druid lords, and most of the creatures die to Shrivel. I think that we should leave him in tier 3.

@sonnet666 I still disagree about how you think it is fine to have Ezuri in tier 2 while Seton is in tier 3. "Ezuri, Renegade Leader also has difficulty with boardwipes, but has an ability on it's commander that protects it from 75% of those cards." Any competitive Ezuri deck can't afford to keep mana up to regenerate elves. This deck is good because it is explosive and keeping mana up is not good in an all-in deck like Ezuri. What I am saying is that Seton is also a general like Ezuri, except he is more explosive than Ezuri.

@sonnet666 You also made no comments addressing how the tier description says that commanders in tier 2 can compete with tier 1 commanders, yet there are some commanders in that list like Kaalia and Omnath that can not realistically be brought to a table with tier 1 decks like zur and be expected to win their fair share of games.

Alright, after about a week of work, I slapped together this list, with four tiers and only competitive-ish commanders. I'd like critique on this. Thanks!

List

a

Tier 1.5 sounds messy, but I can see it being beneficial.

It might be possible simply to raise the standards of Tier 2. Weed it down to the 30 or so strongest commanders outside of the Tier 1 range and change the basic tier descriptions accordingly (it needs to be updated to give slightly more specific / concise information anyway.)

Once we do work out a reform that satisfies everyone, I feel it would be best if we addressed another major issue that's been a concern for a while: Deck lists.

A lot of list viewers, both here and on various other media, have complained that there are no deck lists / descriptions for the commanders, particularly those in the competitive tiers. I think we're finally getting close to a point where we're ready to fix that.

The basic outline would be something like this: Every commander in the top two Tiers, particularly Tier 1, would have a link to a deck list in the description. The format would be something like this:

Commander Name. Archetype 1 / Archetype 2 (optional). Link to Deck 1. Name of Creator. Link to deck 2 (optional). Name of creator 2 (optional).

Example: Zur the Enchanter. Combo-control / Mana Denial. Ad Nauseam Doomsday Zur by Skulloth.

Tell me what you think of this idea. Any improvements, comments, or suggestions in general would be appreciated.

Going back to the discussion of altering Tier lists: There does have to be a fair amount of leeway for placements, even in the top few tiers. Keep in mind that EDH is a multiplayer format. Differences in power level are much less noticeable due to the equalizing factor of having multiple opponents. It allows commanders that would be utterly broken in 1v1 matches (Zur, Derevi, Edric) to be balanced out and brought down to the level of Sharuum and Azami, and even Tier 2 decks like Jarad. As such, it's good to approach the list with a bit of, shall we say, forgiveness. Just because Damia is slightly weaker than Karador doesn't necessarily mean Damia should immediately be thrown in the dumpster. That logic starts leading to garbage like the Top Commanders of EDH list.

That being said, I do agree that there is slightly too large a gap in the current list. Having Teneb and Momir Vig in the same Tier as Kreno and Omnath is laughable. That's why I suggested in my last post the 'trimming down' of Tier 2 to a shorter, tighter list that better reflects which decks can actually compete at competitive tables.

I'm pretty sure all of the aggro/voltron generals and mono-green generals except yisan should be demoted to tier 2. Obviously that's not all that should be demoted(Krenko, Kaalia, Memnarch e.t.c) but it's a start.

I also like the decklist link idea for tier 1 and tier 2.

Ehh, I'm not sure on where Kaalia stands, but I don't think she's in the weaker half of the current Tier 2. I built a Kaalia deck though, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I've built a good 1/3 of the Tier 1 and 2 commanders now though, so I'd like to pretend I'm not totally biased.

Actually after second thought she is not all that bad if you have some kind of lock/land destruction card in hand. Packing many tutors and fast mana really helps, so does playing in a table with a stax deck(which is the number 1 control deck in competitive edh so I guess she can stay, but I'm not really sure.

Kaalia definetly isn't Tier 3.She is easily top Quarter of tier 2. So many decks can't beat LD

Was that can't be land destruction, or can't beat?

Trying something a little different in hopes of speeding up the updating process of the list. I created a Google doc with a version of the list that's up to date with the changes that have been approved, along with a few movements in the lower Tiers that were needed but hadn't been discussed (Venser, Shaper Savant to tier 3, Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor to Tier 4, etc).

Link to Document

This is mainly an attempt to help make everyone more involved in the list who wants to be. Ideally, it will store all changes until either Gigi comes back or we finally decide to create a new official list. sonnet666, NoOneOfConsequence, Didgeridooda, MTGTCG, Leinahtan, and anyone else who actively makes contributions, if you'd like editing powers, just shoot me a message with your email.

Alternatively, if the Doc is too difficult to read, I'll also be keeping an up-to-date copy here on Tappedout. Link

The Tappedout list seems to be glitched though. It defaults to regular catagories, rather than the Tier lists. To get it to list by Tier, go to the 'ordering' dropdown and scroll down to 'Custom Catagories' at the bottom.

Thoughts?

10/10 would bang.

Goodness, has there been quite some discussion going on lately.

To summarize my responses in brief fashion:

1) I'm still not convinced that Seton is tier two.

2) This list should stick with six tiers.

3) Leinahtan's 'competitive only' rankings seem promising.

4) Kaalia is tier two material.

5) Miraculously, I actually approve of every last change that's been made to this list through your own, Narej. I'll get back to you on editing privileges later.

Potential housekeeping in lower tiers:

Hua Tuo, Honored Physician --> Tier 4. He's mono-colored, he's slow, and he doesn't generate true card advantage. The few small gimmicks he can do (things like Sakura-Tribe Elder + Fecundity) are too low-impact to be considered true combos, and not worthy of being in the same Tier as some of the recently demoted Tier 2 commanders like Krenko.

Mikaeus, the Lunarch --> Tier 4. He's an infinite mana outlet in a color combination that has no efficient ways to generate infinite mana. His last ability has some relevance in token swarm builds, but Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite does similar things far better, and she's already in the lower half of Tier 3.

Patron of the Moon --> Tier 4. By the time you're hitting 7 mana, ramp that dumps lands from hand is pointless. Even with blue's impressive card generating power, it's not really relevant.

Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant --> Tier 4. All but impossible to flip, and the abilities of his flipped form are hardly worth the effort.

Surrak Dragonclaw --> Tier 3. Great protector for creature-based combos, of which there are many in Temur. While nowhere close in power to Animar, Wanderer, or Riku, he does bring useful niche abilities to his deck.

1) Seems like I'm the only one suggesting this anyways.

2)agree

3)probably won't be commenting on that one, this list with its current stock of members is enough for me.

4)agree

5)don't have any problems with the ideas.

Maybe we should do a voting system for changes where for example there is a suggestion to which there must be 3 or more votes and if over 1/2 of the votes are yes(within a certain time period of course) the suggestion is executed. I am not sure on the details but a formal voting system like this would help the list master(s) implement worthy changes. Maybe have the first post of a current discussion contain the changes suggested in the last discussion which [those changes] would be the changes that would be voted on in the current discussion. Once the voting period ends for the batch of suggestions in the first post of a discussion, reset it and repeat the process.

So for example:

"The following changes were voted for in the last discussion and have been implemented: Narset to tier 6, Meren to tier 1. The following suggestions were brought up in the last discussion: Arcum to tier 3 and Seton to tier 2. You will have 3 weeks to vote for or against these suggestions. If any of these suggestions receive at least 3 votes and over 1/2 of those votes are for the suggestion the suggestion will be implemented."

That could work. We've done similar things in the past in which I've gathered up all of the commanders discussed in the previous few weeks and composed a short list of potential changes with my own opinions stapled on, then asked for feedback. A more formal system could certainly work. Perhaps once a week, I could make a post on here with said proposed movements, then voting/discussion would be open for one week. The changes would then be implemented and another round of potential revisions would be posted.

I'm just going to point out that tuned Patron is in no way a ramp deck, it's a combo deck with an instant-speed general. In fact, you can pull the combo itself off at instant speed, which is quite nice. Now obviously, mono-color and an expensive general hurts, but it's easily comparable with other decks in Tier 3. Here's a tuned list for an idea of how competitive he can be.

@NarejED

What's the best way to contact you? Never tried to message a tappedout user before.

Tappedout direct message is probably best. I can also be reached on Facebook if needed. Name: Jason Stinefield (Avatar is a crudely drawn picture of Niv-mizzet).

Another semi-lengthy "weigh-in" post. On the google doc, my opinion is that most of the commanders that need to be moved down should be moved down.

Arcanis: Basically a worse version of Azami. He's about a turn slower, can't draw when he comes into play, and, similarly to my Zur vs. Oloro argument, every deck that can play him would just run a few extra wizards and do much better with Azami. Arcanis is just a mediocre general, not tier 2 worthy. I'd slot him into tier 3.

Azusa: Since you need to run about 40-50 lands to truly abuse her ability, the deck is inherently less powerful than most decks. From what I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen much of Azusa) the deck drops a turn 2 Azusa, followed up with more ramp, and ramps out to cast a fatty or Gen Wave. However, with the relative lack of tutorable wincons like Yisan, Azusa is much, much worse. The deck really doesn't have a backup plan besides casting Squall Line for x=less than your life total, and hoping to kill your opponents. Tier 3.

Bruna: Needing to deal 63 damage is a lot better than 120, but still kind of hard. Your 7 mana general needs to survive a turn cycle on turn 4 or 5, the turn when most combo decks have goldfished their win and stax decks have locked down the board. It just seems unrealistic for it to be played and survive. Tier 3.

Child of Alara: Unless you're playing 5c Control, it's just a worse version of Scion. If you're playing 5c Control, I'd say that that's a more tier 3 deck.

Ezuri Renegade: Yisan is probably a better elfball commander. It's like the reason why Sliver Overlord is better than Sliver Hivelord: one can just tutor the other.

Ezuri Claw: Being new and all, I haven't had time to build a deck and playtest, but he seems tier 3ish. The combo with Sage of Hours is cute, but the "dies to a stiff wind" argument can be made. The infect deck isn't great, and overall, I think that he's a tier 3 commander.

Marath, Marchesa: The "dealing 120 damage" argument can be made here. While they'll excel in 1v1's, they scale horribly with more players. The decks win on about turn 6 or 7, assuming your opponents have no removal, or any interaction at all for that matter. They're pretty poor commanders. Tier 3.

Memnarch: Just one question: Why? Paying 7 mana to cast your general, hoping it survives (it's an artifact creature, twice the vulnerability!) the turn, and then paying 7 mana again to steal one permanent isn't very appealing. He acts as a pseudo-wincon once you have infinite mana, but outside of that, I don't see many real applications. Tier 3.

Omnath: With a tuned deck, I'd say that this can kill a player on about turn 5, assuming the table has no interaction. That's a big caveat, and the fact that he can be chumped by any Llanowar Elves is unappealing. Again, dealing 63 damage is much better than 120, but combos will just be faster.

Purphoros: Ah, the one "aggro" general that might be tier 2 worthy. The fact that he's indestructible gives him protection from spells like Krosan Grip, Beast Within, Blasphemous Act, etc. The deck usually lands turn 3 Purphy and proceeds to spam tokens. Since the ability hits all your opponents, you realistically need about 15 creatures, who should be able to attack for the remaining damage. Cards like Mogg Infestation and even smaller scale token generators like Krenko's Command are powerful when you have a Purphy on board, but the deck can be blown out by Cyclonic Rift. (But then again, what deck can't? That card needs to be banned.)

Reaper King: I have literally no experience with this deck and have no idea what it does.

Shattergang: "But is it better than Prossh?" If you're playing Jund, and you really want to play stax, I guess Shattergang is passable. Throw in a few Grave Pacts, and hope? I don't know, but the general consensus is that Shattergang isn't great.

Sydri: Ah, my first commander! Obviously as a competent magic player, I picked a strong general as my first... Yeah, no. Sydri is pretty bad. Most of the combos are either slow, or just better suited for a Sharuum deck. The deck's signature combos are really general-dependent, and since redundancy is hard without half of a 2-card combo in the command zone, the deck is kinda bad. The deck's only good quality is the reliable backup plan of animate artifacts and beat down. Tier 3 material.

Teysa: The combo with Darkest Hour is nice, but from what I've seen, the deck isn't great when that's removed or countered. If anyone with more experience can weigh in, that would be helpful.

Titania: So you cracked a fetch and made a 5/3... now what? I don't think that the deck is very good, but again, it's the same problem with Azusa: I really haven't seen it in play that often. Someone else is probably more qualified.

Uril: See Bruna. The deck is faster, but less combo-y, but more resilient. Probably a better version of Bruna. I'm hovering between tier 2 and 3 with this one.

Thanks for reading.