The odds of them drawing into a FoW, or a Pact (assuming they even have enough mana to pay for Pact during upkeep) are not very good when they're given 7 new cards. They'll have either one of them 6.93% of the time, so worrying about free countermagic isn't worth the time.

I've already stated that the card can backfire, but if played correctly, you minimize the chances. I don't know what point you're trying to make other than it's a fair magic card (which it most certainly is NOT). I know how to play the card correctly, and I get good results with it. That's all I can say.

I stand by my statement that your assessment is just wrong.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cheers!

Okay, first of all with the whole Strip Mine/NoOneOfConsequence thing, yeah, most of you all were super right, very powerful, easily argued to be broken in 1v1, cards restricted in Vintage often are, less good in multiplayer, but still sees some play.

Also, NoOneOfConsequence, whether or not you wanted to come across as a jerk, you appeared that way. Also, you are coming off as a coward, I am not going to slant how you appear at all, but you look like a troll coward looking for a reaction, dismissing everyone's answer you asked. You can't ask for an opinion and say the opinion is wrong, it is an opinion, that YOU ASKED FOR.

Secondly, Timetwister... it is a really good card. Just like Windfall or Wheel of Fortune with the added utility of creating loops with some infinite-draw power decks like Thrasios. Broken... not really? A great card nonetheless. I do think it should be banned, not because of power level, but because the rest of the power 9 is banned, and it should be no different, it feels... out of theme.

EDIT BECAUSE YALL TYPE TOO FAST:

NoOneOfConsequence you are right. I will call you a coward from now on and will make sure not to cover it up, I hope everyone else does the same.

crstisalie Twister is good, but I hope you can tell that it isn't super broken, just really a good value or storm card, like Windfall with added graveyard recursion/hate dependent on the type of deck. There are times when any of the 3 good wheels are better than the other, and I don't think any should be banned on power level alone or considered broken.

Am I a jerk, or are you too ready to call me a jerk? Most arguments in life are like this. Don't try to objectify something that's subjective. It's not so much that I dismissed anyone's answer as that I kinda wanted a better explanation that wasn't obviously something anyone would already know at a glance.

And what about asking for an opinion makes it to where I can't disagree with it?

I'd really rather just move along, I've obviously opened a can of worms that was just waiting for someone like me to show up.

I never said it was super broken, what I was trying to convey is that there are instances where it resolves, and what it does can be super broken. It all hinges on what deck you're playing it in, and when you choose to resolve it, to maximize its effectiveness.

NoOneOfConsequence No limitations on a destroy target land card is a big difference compared to another that narrowly focuses on nonbasics. Wasteland hardly touches Teferi, Yisan, and GAAIV lists for example where basic counts are high. You're continuing to ignore that.

But if it's such a minor difference to you anyway why don't you just run Wasteland over Strip Mine and stop complaining and playing victim here like we're the bad guys ganging up on you. Maybe think about things before you say them because you really don't seem to judging by your recent activity. I think I told you to do the exact same thing last time you decided to debate over something.

I didn't appreciate your dismissiveness in the first place, and then you said the reason for being dismissive is because you already knew the answer? Then why the hell did you even ask? You're the only one here who is being even remotely condescending.

crstisalie, I agree with that sentiment.

NoOneOfConsequence I called you a jerk and a coward (also a troll) as that was what it appeared your intentions are. After closer inspection, I believe your original comment to be rhetorical, so Soren841 ended up answering it, unsure of that, and everything unfolded from there.

I now don't think you are a coward or jerk, but an opinionated player who didn't understand that us trying to answer your question, unaware of your point actually would always end like this. I am sorry for that. I still don't agree with you or your sentiment at all, however understand that that is simply a matter of opinion and not something indicative of you as a person. I truely want to apologize for my previous, erroneous statement.

SynergyBuild, Timetwister is the only one not banned for a reason tho. Imo Black Lotus isn't deserving of a ban but the moxen are banned because they have a color identity and Ancestral and Time Walk are banned for obvious reasons.

NoOneOfConsequence, like I said already, you may have wanted a better reason but sometimes there isn't. The reason doesn't have to be complicated.

Whoever said I was complaining? I don't even play MTGO 1v1. I was just asking for fun. Not really having much, though.

I'm acting like you're ganging up on me because that's precisely what you're doing, if counting is something you know how to do. In any case, 'nonbasic' isn't exactly a narrow focus. Sure, there are some good decks wasteland doesn't do much against, but it's not splitting hairs to say that it's not much worse than strip mine. We're kind of just going in circles now, though--you have your opinion, and I have mine.

Also, thank you, Synergy. That's kind of you to bother with.

We're "ganging up on you" because you acted, intentionally or not, like a dick, and no one here is going to take shit.

We're "ganging up on you" because you acted, intentionally or not, like a dick, and no one here is going to take shit.

Ok, third party attempting to make a separate discussion: Where do you all think Prime Speaker Vannifar will be places in the cEDH meta? Personally I’m predicting that he’ll be placed around t3 or possibly t2.

NoOneOfConsequence Like I said, you did well by initially posing the question you asked. It was clear and concise what you were asking about and you didn't use ridiculously opinionated or heinous words like you did last time. What bothers me the most was your response to a simple answer to your question. Even when you reflected on your response, you failed to see why it was interpreted as rude and blamed the brevity of the answer for the tone of your own, which doesn't feel incredibly valid considering the answer didn't have to have much more depth than what Soren841 provided for you. That's just not cool and doesn't fly with me buddy. I don't care about the Strip Mine conversation at all, so you can go ahead and drop that. It's just how you respond to someone else's views if it's not the same as your own that really ticks me off, and you need to recognize that if you did in fact try to open a discussion for fun, you're precisely the person who went ahead and ended it which made it not fun for you or anyone for that matter.

Had you responded appropriately in the first place, the entire rest of the discussion would have had a different tone. If you provided your own views for why Strip Mine should not be banned in MTGO Commander by providing comparison to Wasteland as well as your opinion for why you don't think it's power level in 1v1 Commander should be enough to dictate a ban, then we would have a good discussion. Instead you said "whatever." You're the exact person who ruined any fun to be had in the discussion with your dismissiveness, so just sit and think on that. I do apologize if you thought the EDH police were ganging up on you, but you kind of did it to yourself when you said something unnecessarily rude to someone that I and many others here have respect for. You on the other hand, have failed to impress me at all with your past couple interactions here now, so perhaps keep in mind how you appear to others as well. I admit I may have been a little biased and jumped to a conclusion when interpreting your tone (whether you intended it to be dismissive or not, it came across as such to me) based on your last interaction in here. I shouldn't be so quick to make that sort of judgment though, and for that, I apologize.

What do we do from here now? Well, I gave you some advice that you should keep in mind when you post here in the future. I hate when discussions turn into a flaming session, so I do feel sorry that you were the target of all of that. I agree with SynergyBuild that you are an opinionated player, but that doesn't make you a jerk or any other name that may be thrown your way. I want you to feel active and involved, but, and I can't stress this enough, please try to think about how your comments may be interpreted before you post them. Ignorance and dismissiveness is not taken lightly here as you can probably tell by now haha.

 ^ it's true ~~ yeaGO

generalrenard Vannifar is at least tier 2 in my opinion. Flash Hulk and Pod lines are nutty with her, and the fact that she can chain up to Protean Hulk from the CZ leads me to believe she's incredibly powerful in cEDH. Unfortunately Simic isn't in great colors for Haste enablers or enchantment tutors to grab Intruder Alarm and make her combo easier, and the best Hulk package in Simic colors that wins on the spot is Ezuri Sage, which isn't the most condensed combo by any means.

it's actually not bad compared to, say, Breakfast Hulk. I think she may make tier 1. Obviously that requires her being proven effective across multiple metas etc.

I hadn’t considered hulk lines for the list I’m working on, silly me. Also MightyDarknut can you explain what the Ezuri sage combo is? And I’m torn in the how condensed the combos should be after reading the Momir Hackball Primer about concerning the win conditions about how the number of moving parts is beneficial.

The Hulk package for Ezuri Sage includes Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Sage of Hours, and at least four 0-drop creatures which is why it's not quite as condensed as it could be. Essentially when Hulk dies, you fetch this package and Ezuri sees all of these creatures at the same time, giving you five experience counters. Moving to combat phase, put five +1/+1 counters on Sage, remove the counters to take an extra turn, and you can do this every extra turn thereafter, generating infinite turns.

Thank you for the explanation. Also I am curious to know what your opinions on whether Vannifar will be seen more in the 99 or as a commander.

Okay, I suppose I'll be sure to be more detailed about exactly what I'm implying next time.

As for Vannifar...God, I love Simic so much. Yeah, she's definitely at least tier 2, though she may be a little too fragile for tier 1. Incredibly versatile, though--another great combo/control commander, though, I suppose nearly every tier 1 deck is a combo/control deck.

generalrenard I can definitely see Vannifar serving as redundancy to already existing Birthing Pod lines in many 4 color and 5 color decks. I don't think she would be a great target for a Flash Hulk package for example because she has a CMC of 4, and ideally you would want to pair a Haste enabler with her. Except there aren't really any good 2 CMC enablers and you can honestly Flash Hulk for a better package that will win on the spot too.

In short, I don't see her as gamebreaking in the 99, but rather a good compliment and backup to many Pod lines. A good example of her application in the 99 can be found in Dickie_Smalls' Akiri/Thrasios deck here.

NoOneOfConsequence How is she too fragile?

While a tiny nitpick as it isn't truly cEDH related, I would move Adeliz, the Cinder Wind to either 3 or more likely 4. It is a deck that is well above anything of the tier 5 tier. It is an effective tempo list, and I personally believe it should be in tier 4.

I mean that she's a 4-mana 2/4 with no protection and an ability that gets shutdown by Aven Mindcensor, Stranglehold, Linvala, and Pithing Needle effects. Not every commander is Narset or Uril, obviously, but it'd help.

Still, she's pretty great. I could see her being tier 1 depending on exactly how you could combo with her as the commander.

So she's Sisay with more toughness whose combo requires less mana.

Don't forget Torpor Orb since her Pod line is pretty heavily reliant on ETB triggers for her to go off. I'd say she's overall pretty resilient to most Stax effects, but any good Stax player will gear their hate towards their meta.