NoOneOfConsequence A list would be nice

Yeah, Soren has continued to combat me on all fronts, the last few days, which is fine, but I was never rude to him at any point in time. I state my case, and that's that. I am allowed to respond, in kind, to differences in opinion that are directed towards statements I've made. Am I just supposed to state my opinion, and then when someone insinuates that I'm wrong, I'm just supposed to sit there, and not try and argue my point?

I don't think that's how that works.

People are delusional, if they think that only the lists that appear here are competitive, and everything else is unplayable in cEDH.

You aren't arguing your point you're literally saying "hey this Zur deck is good" 5 times. We got it the first time, repeating it is just annoying.

Then you comment how control isn't viable in cEDH, then I'm inclined to comment that you're wrong. It's not just me repeating it, I'm reading what's written, and responding in kind. I'm allowed to defend my stance.

i think you have stated your opinion well enough in some cases and that it stands for itself regardless of if one particular participant doesn't happen to agree. sometimes its best to give a thread some time to accumulate other responses that you might find more productive to engage with, rather than going back and forth. and they probably need to make sure they aren't hounding the discussion either because its really just become a lot of repeating all around, and none of it is appropriate.

Oh, a list? Why, here's my very own: The Recursion Nightmare.

About the only thing I'd consider changing about that list is maybe cutting something for Sensei's Divining Top and maybe playing that one new black card from Ixalan instead of Lightning Coils for a wincon. Really, both are slow enough to where, if I'm winning with either, I have the whole board on lockdown anyhow, so, yeah. The list is pretty tight, and about as well-tuned as Shirei can possibly be. 20 basics may seem like a lot, but after a lot of testing, I find I prefer no less than that for coffers, and for some of my double-black cards.

been off and on here but been here for a while (Hi, if you remember me from this list's past).

BUG- yes its the best color combination. is Muldy the best shell for control.... i am disinclined to think so. Sidisi, tasigur, thras/silas all seem better than muldrotha. 6 mana is nothing to scoff at and one of the points of this list as well as everywhere else is WHO HELMS IT THE BEST. I can further expand on any of these generals if it must.

Shirei- theres been arguments for it, dont remember where they got burried. The reason we ask for a list is so that we can evaluate if it can stand among the titans of the cEDH format. Theres no argument that Shirei isnt rogue af. Therefore, youd have to provide a list rather than 1 or 2 synnergies to prove your point.

If you have a list on vannifar, post it. if it werent for me focusing on circu, riku and aminatou lately id take a look at her. But can we please stop with the "my list is so good. im not going to say why or how it gets around X, Y or Z", and actually give us something to look at please

I posted a vannifar list the day she was spoiled

I posted a vannifar list the day she was spoiled

Uhhh, just in case it got buried, I posted a list. Check the archives.

I also mentioned a good list for Control Zur.

Soren is just trying to dominate discussion here while not providing any reasonable data to back up the claims about Vannifar. Please come back with some tournament report later or an honest summary of testing games. As it is now there's a deck with something like 16 slots dedicated to the pod line plus an Ezuri hulk package. What are we even talking about...

Ezuri Hulk is the only good simic hulk package so that's really not my fault. You and SynergyBuild are making it sound way worse than it is. If we went off of what you've said (which has even less data than mine. At least I've played the list) then Vannifar is like low tier 3 and can't do shit with completely garbage draws all the time.

Winterblast

I actually also have a less-commander-dedicated list for Vannifar at Vannifar is for Value.

It is a hybrid combo-control list with around 26 total pieces of interaction, and a flash-hulk combo that, while not instantaneous from the commander, does fully work from the command zone and 2 creatures, with an untap or a couple turns. The deck gets Spellseeker for Flash or it gets Summoner's Pact for Protean Hulk . Fierce Empath for Hulk also works.

Another line I have considered but do not run is Body Double & Breaching Hippocamp . If you drop the empath and another card, after you fetch Spellseeker , sacrificing it for a Hippocamp and then untapping Vannifar, fetching the Double to copy Spellseeker to get the other piece is quite a fun combo. It is less card efficient, but more creature-efficient.

Soren841 I have always said Vannifar is tier 2 as is, and could be tier 1. I am doubtful I have made Vannifar sounds worse than that. If I did, I apologize. You make it seem way better than it is though, and I am here to be a realist.

And I never made her sound better than she is.

I might be a little late to this discussion, but as far as a good "permission" control list goes for Multiplayer cEDH, Tasigur appears to be the most viable in my opinion considering that he can recycle answers from your graveyard while I've found that other control lists tend to struggle in this environment because they can fizzle after exhausting their counters and removal in hand. This is why stax is more popular generally in Multiplayer EDH because stax players lay down static pieces to affect their opponents and slow or lock them out of their own gameplan, forcing opponents to find answers and interact. Tasigur control is much different because there is usually little to no stax elements in the list, aside from Notion Thief and Deathrite Shaman to an extent if you want to consider them stax or hate pieces. Grafdigger's Cage is also found occasionally since it doesn't conflict with Tasigur's ability, but it can affect shenanigans with Yawgmoth's Will , which is more used as a value engine in banana control rather than a combo piece. His obvious flaw is that he is heavily reliant on graveyard synergies to operate and keep answers circulating back into your hand, but a Rest in Peace resolving on the board doesn't necessarily shut a Tasigur pilot out of the game.

Muldrotha, the Gravetide can operate similarly in a sense, but is less inherently powerful with limits to exclusively permanent types which is incredibly important to note. Because of this limitation, Muldrotha is inclined to lean more heavily not necessarily on stax pieces, but removal attached to permanents and value pieces as well (from what I've seen at least). Because of this, a Muldrotha deck doesn't usually have much interaction available at instant speed unless they have a body on the field that can, which kills the hidden surprise element most control players like to play. Counterspells are what make control what it is, because a control player can have a say ultimately into what resolves, and what does not. Muldrotha just doesn't feel reactive enough to be viable in a control shell, and on top of that it costs six mana to cast and that just feels bad to me. If you have a list that says otherwise, please provide one and prove me wrong.

To the person discussing Zur as a control list, I honestly think you got a bad rap. Looking back at the discussion I was mostly absent for, I really don't see how it was taken so far. The only think that mildly annoyed me was the excessive HTML styling of your text shadow element lol. Jokes aside though, you didn't talk about Zur as much as Soren has talked about his Vannifar list. The issue, however, arose when you brought up the topic again after it was dismissed and came to a close. That came across as pestering and annoying and it looked like you intended to continue doing so to get a rise out of someone. I also want to note that I didn't see much indication of why you think Zur is good other than just flat out saying he is good for control state a deck list in the fringe database. If you could provide explanations for what Zur can bring to the table, why he is good, and how he contributes to the overall game plan, it would offer much more of an understanding for others and demonstrate credibility for yourself because you just sort of stated points with no actual content or a backbone to support it. I still think the whole thing was blown out of proportion though, but we can all move on from it. That tends to be the common trend in this discussion.

Muldrotha also doesn't dig. Tasi digs through the deck, Zur tutors, Baral loots.

Darknut My personal favourite permission general is The Scarab God . When I play control, I like having a good mana sink in the zone for a place to throw unused mana held up for instants. I'm not saying its a high tier deck, just my personal favourite.

On top of the mana sink it help you dig through your deck via scry, has a pseudo tax evading ability and the mass life loss is a nice cherry on top if you sprinkle in some Zombie Synergy.

Being able to reanimate creatures at instant speed provides some wonderful flexibility. There is also the major fun factor of countering your opponents creature and then reanimating it for yourself, even if it is just a Reclamation Sage .

I mean, hey, there are plenty of cards that you can play with Muldrotha that dig, but, fair enough. In any case, Tasigur gives your opponents a choice (not that a skilled Tasigur pilot wouldn't minimize the choice most of the time), and he can't get back lands, which does make his ability better, of course, but is worse compared to Muldrotha. Getting back fetches to thin your deck every turn, or, of course, Strip Mine , is pretty good. Unfortunately, I don't really have a list to show for it, and I've never played any Muldrotha myself (though I have played Tasigur), so, yeah.

Also, Shirei! Come on guys, I posted a list. Don't ignore it again.

I have to work today, so my time to respond is limited. If you want to know the reasons for why Control Zur is good, just read the primer that mmcgeach wrote up.

Control Zur

I really wouldn't say much else other than what is already stated there.

Guys... I checked out NoOneOfConsequence's Shirei list. Guess what? It is trash. Sorin Markov and Mindslaver as wincons level of trash, not even a joke, that bad.

Oh, you want examples? Heap Doll is the type of stuff this deck runs. 1 mana watses of a card that only occasionally could give value with the 5 mana commander with no immediate impact on the board.

Oh, but at least the numerous 1 mana do nothings are at least only 1 mana, right? Workhorse has something to show you.

Do you want to actually know what 'control' it has? No countermagic in mono-black (Unless Dash Hopes or Withering Boon are going be your fancy) so it has to have serious removal, yep, this list runs all of the cEDH classics like Fume Spitter , the mana efficient card draw in the form of Harvester of Souls , yep, and hate pieces like Sorceress Queen .

I can't believe I looked at this garbage. It runs Damnation over Toxic Deluge .

Also, Tasigur, as Mighty_Darknut said does have some very efficient interactions, but I am still going to stick by my word that Divergent Control is the best permission control list in the format, a link is at BUGR Divergent Control. It uses Notion Thief and Whirlpool Warrior as its combo target, and I while am more a fan of Kiki-Exarch it it's place, it does do work.

Other powerful permission control lists are Tasigur, GAAIV, Baral, and Rashmi.

Aphoticate The Scarab God is not one of the highest tier decks out there like you said, but it does have certain elements that are desirable for a control mindset. While it is a little too mana intensive for my taste, I can see it doing well in a control shell. The filtering you get from its scry ability is very useful for setting up your top deck even though it doesn't provide actual card advantage.

As Soren841 pointed out, and this is something I forgot to mention entirely, generals that can dig, loot, or tutor are some of the biggest things to look for to helm a permission deck or it just won't work very well. And any additional abilities are just icing on the cake.

NoOneOfConsequence As for Tasigur's downside, in my experience it usually will go down in a way where someone is threatening to resolve something that no one wants on the board, so you activate his ability, look to someone other than the player who is trying to resolve the spell and say "hey, do you want to give me a Counterspell ?" and you get what you want almost all of the time. I hardly ever look at it as a downside, but rather a way to play politics and size up other people at the table, so it does take a certain level of understanding other players and their decks to analyze who else would be hurt the most by the spell resolving. It also doubles as a way for your opponents to feel as if you're on their side and duke it out amongst each other while you just sit back and relax. It's honestly my favorite way to play Magic. :)

crstisalie I have already read the list a long while back and I have been following it for quite some time. My point that you obviously missed is that you had not provided thorough explanations in your own words and that's what was so bothersome. If you're trying to make a case for something, a list is certainly helpful, but when you're actively arguing for something you need to be able to actually discuss it yourself in detail, which is something you failed to do entirely. There were a few feeble attempts, but in the form of naming miscellaneous cards and heresy opinions with no factual support focusing on how or why which leads me to believe that you don't actually know what it is you're talking about and all of that goes back to the whole credibility thing I mentioned in my last post. Again, it might be best to drop it at this point because you failed to prove your point when given several opportunities to do so and your latest attempt is "oh I have to work, but here's a list that I mentioned earlier and you can read that." Screw that lol. You should use lists as a supplement to prove your point, not just link them to do all of the talking when the list by itself hasn't yet proved to equate to the variations already listed in the description. If you can't say something redemptive to save your case, just leave it be then. We all understand how you feel about it, but you have yet to sway anyone and I don't even think you can.

SynergyBuild ur right but chill..

Ummm....calm the fuck down dude, holy shit.

You clearly don't know how useful Shirei's ability actually is. You do realize you can use cards like Fume Spitter every single turn, right? You can Heap Doll every single turn to keep anyone else from having a graveyard? You do realize that Workhorse is a ramp spell, right? Oh, and, do excuse me for running Damnation when I'm already running Necropotence .

Sorceress Queen isn't a hate piece. It's so that I can recur guys in my deck that are bigger than 1 power. Like, say, Harvester of Souls , who can draw me, say, 5 cards each turn. Not each of my turns, each turn. While I'm also applying stax effects to people with the creatures I'm sacrificing.

Mindslaver is a fine wincon when the game is already locked down. There's no rush to cast it, and it can also save you from dying earlier.

Please stop bashing cards you've never actually played with. You clearly took one look at the list, gave no thought to any of the synergies involved, saw some apparently janky cards, and concluded that it was bad. Good job.

Needless to say, I'm pretty insulted. There are far worse commanders in tier 3.