I'm on break, so I'll try to make this quick.

I can talk all day, but in the end, they're just words. So you say that you've been following the deck for a while, but yet don't understand how it can be good? Doesn't make sense. Playtest the deck, and tune it to your meta if you don't believe me. You know that the scope is sooo broad, and to explain everything, to be quite frank, would amount to more time than I'm willing to take, especially when people come off as condescending, like yourself. It's not worth my time.

I named a slew of cards, and strategies to stop Sisay (that Control Zur can run). What other explanation do you need for that matchup? The deck runs all the fastest mana, so getting them out at an opportune time isn't all that tough. The deck DOES play through stax, and combo, just fine. The only stax piece that hurts the deck is Aven Mindcensor (and in some cases, Peacekeeper), and with enough lands, the deck plays through stax just fine. Playtest the deck, and find out for yourself, instead of being asked to be spoonfed reasons/explanations that will literally do nothing, unless you thoroughly playtest the deck yourself, if you don't believe me.

I have been playing this game since 1993, which is likely longer than some of you have even been alive. I've been playing singleton formats almost exclusively since 2005. You don't know me, but I definitely understand this format, and especially this game. In your recent exchange with me, you just come off as a bit of an elitist, which is very unbecoming. I gave a slew of cards that interact with Sisay, but you just dismiss them like they mean nothing, even though Control Zur can, and does, run those cards as answers to many different decks in the format, because the stax cards it runs, are good against a multitude of matchups. Sisay can be stopped, easily, and I explained that, so what are you even talking about. My Zur deck stops Sisay all the time.

All you have to do is literally tune the deck to your meta, and playtest it, to see how good it can be (or is that too much work for you?). Mmcgeach's explanations explain everything just fine, as to why it's good. Me re-iterating what was already said serves no purpose other than to appease people who won't even thoroughly playtest the deck, to put my claims (and by extension, his) to the test. Testing is what matters, not words, or where they come from.

Put your nose to the grindstone and put my claims to the test!

Seriously, you're telling me Alesha, Who Smiles at Death , who can only recur one creature on your turn that has to attack, and you have to pay 2 mana and attack with her, and Dralnu, Lich Lord , who's also 5 mana, comes with a huuuuuge drawback, and can only recur 1 instant or sorcery by default (and then it's gone), and friggin' Ambassador Laquatus are better than the commander that can draw cards, filter other people's draws, force everyone to discard, remove their graveyards, and so on on everyone else's turn? Give me a fucking break.

I swear, If your heads were any further up your elitist asses sometimes, you could almost tell your fucking vocal chords to hold priority.

And, yes, before anyone makes the argument, Alesha can recur 2 or less power creatures, and she's in (not really by that much) better colors, but the whole point of Shirei is being able to recur multiple creatures each turn--hence cards like Smokestack . Alesha is a little extra value, at best. Shirei? Shirei is an engine that will win the game if you don't stop him (but he can be very easily stopped, hence why I'm ONLY ARGUING that he's tier 3).

NoOneOfConsequence, none of the creatures mentioned are creatures you would want to use every turn. Alesha's colors are actually very relevant because white is the best stax color. This is all without considering that Sherei's whole gameplan (lockdown) is not viable

No, they're not. Alesha's effect still sucks. Also, you're just flat-out wrong if you think using Fume Spitter every turn until there aren't any creatures on the board except your own isn't worthwhile. Same goes for Heap Doll , same goes for Harvester of Souls , same goes for Workhorse if you have something like Winding Canyons , same goes for literally 20 other creatures in the deck, like Noxious Toad (oracle text, it's each opponent).

Okay, lockdown isn't viable. Sure. That's why Alesha having to access to white for stax effects is so relevant, right? Mono-black has stax effects aplenty, and especially with Shirei--I can abuse Smokestack and Contamination to literally shut down everything.

It's entirely possible to keep anyone other than yourself from drawing anything but lands with Thoughtpicker Witch , and they'll be topdecking, at that.

You guys act like you know what you're talking about when you haven't even heard of most of these cards before, let alone played them/played against them.

NoOneOfConsequence your deck does have an impressive value engine No doubt about it. It is not viable at all though, because your interaction is too weak and filtering is too slow to ever survive until Shirei hits.

I play shirei, with those cards, in a casual deck. Don't act like you know me better than I do, with your "stop bashing cards you don't know" nonsense. Get over yourself.

My shirei build is one I have bought 3 times now, giving them to new players, with each costing me $24 and sharing the list online at Budget Shirei Aristocrats/Sacrifice.

It is a great casual commander to start with but isn't competitive viable, and a proper shirei build can be tier 3, while yours is tier 5 or below, because an Atogatog built poorly with the price tag of your deck could be magnitudes of power better. Okay?

Was Toothy, Imaginary Friend overlooked, or is it not listed for a reason? Also, Pir is listed as a Tier 3 commander - I'm curious how playing Toothy as a partner would affect the overall Tier'd rating. Overall, I'm also curious to know how Partnering affects the overall Tier ranking. Thanks :)

NoOneOfConsequence, Alesha does not try to lock down the game. Also, I wouldn't want to use any of those creatures once let alone every turn. They're all garbage.

SynergyBuild Ah, naturally, you pick now to tell me you've played Shirei before. Right. You can be one vindictive little guttersnipe, dude.

Yeah, sure, your $24 Shirei deck is better than mine. I stand by what I said--my list is about as tuned as a Shirei deck can possibly be. I've been playing it forever. It's tier 3, and, as you just said, a proper Shirei deck is tier 3, which is literally my entire argument.

Apparently, because I run Damnation over Toxic Deluge , my deck is worse than tier 5. My card choices are just different than yours, and you really want to act like your cheaper deck is better than mine to make me look stupid and you look smart. I can justify the inclusion of literally ever card in that list, as I've been tweaking it for a very long time. Again, about the only thing I might consider cutting something for is top.

Sure, you could build a more competitive deck for that price tag, but it's not like my money was wasted--I could easily just cannibalize all the chase cards in the deck and use them in a different one. I only care about moving Shirei up to tier 3, for fuck's sake.

NoOneOfConsequence, the problem is Sherei is not tier 3. The fact that the only card you'd consider cutting is top honestly casts serious doubt on any of your reasons for certain cards.

Really, I don't think any of the Moxen/Mana Vault/Lotus Petal/etc. are worthwhile to run over more the more stable ramp I'm already running.

Getting Shirei out turn 2 with protection is nearly impossible, even with those cards. Getting him out without protection is just a bad idea, frankly.

Desecrated Tomb is interesting, though--but things like Bitter Ordeal and Revel in Riches aren't any better of a win condition than Sorin Markov , frankly, and he has at least a little bit more utility.

crstisalie You're twisting my words a bit, so I feel inclined to clarify what you're misconstruing. I never said that I don't see how it can be good, in fact, I actually think it is quite good otherwise I would not have been following it for some time now. I said that I don't see how it can be as good as other variations that have proven to be achieve the tier listing they are currently placed at. There is a huge difference between the two. Also stating a select few cards that are good against a single Sisay matchup doesn't warrant that it is tier 1 and make it comparable with other Zur variations. What would be nice, and what I noticed is all too absent from the list is a matchup analysis, but that sort of resource is a little too difficult to provide and a waste of your time, huh? I understand this is not your list, but you're all talk about how good your list is and I'm not seeing anything extraordinary from you. One would think you could provide a little something extra aside from saying the deck is good against Sisay unless that's all you play against.

I asked you to explain yourself for the sake of others and myself beyond the scope of what the list does and you are completely unable to do so even now. You still insist on telling me to look at this list and test it out myself and I have done that. Guess what? I have numerous times and I still don't think it's nearly as good as Doomsday or Shimmer Zur, but if you really think it is, sway me. Do something other than stating what has already been said or drop the whole darn thing.

Calling me an elitist was pretty cute though. That third paragraph to the end reminded me of the Navy Seal copypasta and simply stating that you've been playing the game since 1993 doesn't mean anything because you haven't proven to impress anyone at all, and frankly this conversation has gone on far too long. I'm afraid that it will just dilute itself into a never ending loop if it hasn't already and I'm at fault for engaging with you in the matter after it was done to death last night. I was on your side at first, but this conversation is getting nowhere and now I can see how others found you to be an incessant nuisance. I was suggesting to move on from it all, because I don't want to hear the same things all over again in a massive wall of text and get insulted at the same time. How about we agree to disagree on things and put an end to this because there is no point to prove anymore. Any interest to be had has been exhausted and this isn't fun for anyone.

Soren841 Dude, I said I might cut something for top. I'm not currently running it, because I actually think I can do without it. Please actually read what I say.

That makes more sense lol. Your refusal to run the moxen, though.. regardless, even if your deck was ACTUALLY tuned, it still wouldn't be tier 3. you can't honestly believe sherei is on the same level as Azami and Karador

MightyDarknut is it just me or can you actually see crstisalie's comments. I don't see anything but you talking to yourself. Weird.

Also, NoOneOfConsequence, my shirei deck is trash because it is 24 bucks. I am not here trying to defend it, but myself. You attacked my character and made the low blow. I just don't like your deck. Calm down.

You do realize that actions speak louder than words, right? No amount of words I type will convince anyone who is suffering from cognitive dissonance. If I were to breakdown all the matchups, it would be dismissed as heresay anyway (similar to how you dismiss the matchup against Sisay, you would just do to any other matchup), so what you're asking for is exercise in futility. If you take the time to test the deck against a slew of matchups, to get the gist of how good it can be, then that would solve a lot of this, but it seems like you're unwilling to do the legwork yourself, to come to your own conclusions. The mere fact that you are insisting that I "sway" you is just telling me that you HAVE NOT tested the deck yourself sufficiently, otherwise you'd have data yourself, and wouldn't be asking for me to convince you, because you'd explain to me, in x, y, and z terms, why I'm flat out wrong. But go ahead, and continue trying to bait me into discussing something that, in the end, would serve no purpose, unless you yourself put in the work to test and tune the deck to your meta, and see how it does against many different matchups, lest you continue to be woefully ignorant. The cards the deck runs have game against many different decks, not just Sisay. One look at the deck list, and having a good understanding of the mechanics of the format, and how cards interact with each other, would tell you that the cards that it runs are good against many matchups.

And for the record, the only one who openly found my commentary a nuisance, was Soren, who attacked me first.

And your post WAS condescending, so I responded in kind. I treat others how they treat me. Treat me with respect, and I'll treat you with respect. If you don't, then don't expect the courtesy.

crstisalie I can finally see your comments, but you and MightyDarknut have these huge walls, do you both mind tl;dring it for my tiny brain?

SynergyBuild tl;dr he said that the 3 cards he mentioned sum up the Sisay matchup. nothing worth reading.

Thx Soren

It's not going to do much, unless you can take the time to read the comments, but I'll try to sum it up.

We're coming from two different standpoints. I'm insisting the deck should be thoroughly tested by the community (tuned to each player's respective metas), and he just wants hard facts as to how it plays against certain matchups. There are too many variables to cover all that. It literally takes brute force playtesting to come to conclusions. I only know that it performs well in my meta, which consists of FC Tazri, a slew of Flash Hulk lists, Tymna/Thrassios decks, Sisay, Shimmer Zur, etc.

It performs admirably. That's all I can say.

Double posted.

What deck?

Control Zur. All I'm insisting on is for the community to just test the deck.

I am not a permission control player or a Zur player, so I'll pass, seems plausible tho, good luck.

Thank you, SynergyBuild. You've at least been respectful, and I appreciate that.

Cheers!