crstisalie that's very hypocritical of you to say considering that you called me an elitist and said I suffered from cognitive dissonance. Those are prime examples of personal attacks. You're guilty of it too, so please don't go pointing fingers.

I acknowledge that I personally condescended you, and for that I would like to apologize. I never once outright called you names, but I am sorry if I offended you in any way. I just get a little worked up sometimes, especially after seeing you just post a decklist and no actual support besides that to go off of. I took that as dismissiveness and I hope you can now somewhat understand why I reacted the way I did because I quite simply wanted more content than a list I was already familiar with. I think we just need to move on and move forward from all the bad things and negativity that was rampant in this discussion. I'm honestly glad Soren841 is back because it didn't feel right without him for some reason haha.

I wasn't referring to you with the cognitive dissonance remark. I was saying that in regards to other people who may suffer from it, due to being stuck in their ways. If you took it that way, I'm sorry, but that's on you. Context is everything.

My goal was simply to get the community to test the deck I was talking about, being I already know how it performs in my meta, but I wanted a larger sample size, and the only way to get that, is out of brute force testing (using other player's piloting the deck as a metric).

The point was, no amount of words I type would convince people who suffer from cognitive dissonance anything, unless they test the deck, and see the results for themselves. It's definitely NOT what you think.

A word of advice to everyone; the fact that an entire set of rules was posted in the updates due to toxicity and some people were given warnings/potentially banned from this page would imply that this conversation shouldn't be started right up again.

Nobody needs to justify their actions, nobody needs to explain their reasoning, everybody just needs to accept that some stuff was said, swallow any pride/ego and just move on. Yes, it's hard to do, but this page has literally just devolved back into bickering the second the topic was brought up.

thegigibeast ShaperSavant tw0handt0uch LabManiac_Sigi you guys seeing this?

I'm trying to make amends here, lol someone help me out. This person has been incredibly rude and even yeaGO told them to stop before because they continued to goad and prod at someone in discussion. All they're doing is burning more bridges here and I'm extremely offended by this last remark of theirs. I'm done here. I have nothing more to say I guess, so I think I'm taking the rest of the night off from this site.

Cheers all.

If explaining how you interpreted what I wrote incorrectly is "burning bridges," then I'm at a loss for words.

I harbor no animosity towards you, I'm just clearing the air, and telling you that you interpreted what I wrote incorrectly.

This started to devolve when someone who was banned for toxic behavior was allowed back in.

Honestly at this point idk if I'm unbanned or my phone is magical because it's one of the two

So, thoughts on Saffi Eriksdotter ? I've asked this in the past and have been looking at optimising her for a while now:

Just Stay Dead: cEDH Edition

Commander / EDH* enpc

SCORE: 10 | 25 COMMENTS | 2122 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS

Two things:

1. I would be keen for some feedback. I'm happy with the list but know it could be better.

2. I think Saffi could be bumped up a tier (yes, I'm biased) and would like to hear people's thoughts.

It's a bug. We didn't unban anyone. Yeago said he'll have it fixed ASAP.

crstisalie: I'm going to give you a small warning here. I hope you were just overreacting to what looked like an awful mistake on our end and you'll continue commenting here in a more civil manner once this technical issue is fixed.

Id like to hear everyone’s opinion on Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and see if there is support for bumping him into high power, as his unique ability to break the undying mechanic seems to stand out from most of the mid-power commanders he’s lumped in with currently. Here’s my current deck list for consideration:

Unhallowed Be Thy Name

Commander / EDH Azdranax

SCORE: 57 | 4 COMMENTS | 6152 VIEWS | IN 19 FOLDERS

I admit that I was, perhaps, overreacting a little when I saw someone who was banned just recently, allowed to comment again. I just thought 'what was the point of having rules if you aren't going to enforce them?'

I felt it needed addressing, but others clearly feel otherwise.

I don't want toxic discussions in here, and I just felt if the mods aren't going to moderate, then what's the point of engaging in discussions here?

Thanks for the clarification.

LabManiac_Sigi, would you mind specifically telling me why I'm banned while crstisalie didn't even get warning? Not to be mean to him or anything but he definitely was a lot worse than I was. Even SynergyBuild used harsher language than I did! I know we don't get along but that shouldn't influence your decisions. (Not that it did but honestly rn it really looks like it did)

(the technical issue is addressed)

Azdranax Cool list man. What do you think of Extraplanar Lens , Gauntlet of Power and Cabal Stronghold ? I wonder if they would be helpful to power those combos out faster?

6cmc does seem like a lot but considering how much Ramp mono B has access to I could see good ol Mike and Trike being considered high hower. Looks formidable to me but im not very knowledgeable on what exactly the criteria is for high power.

I think I may have posted just minutes too soon, so shameless repost:

Now I know this isn't going to go down well initially. But I used to have Zedruu stax deck in my casual meta. Seeing cards such as Gilded Drake , In the Eye of Chaos , Stony Silence , Null Rod , Blood Moon , Ensnaring Bridge , Moat it makes me wonder if there's a Flash -rector deck out there, or a jeskai Stasis build for cEDH.

Not that it would be much better than Keranos blue-moon, but the draw power in the cz seems like something worth considering.

Anybody know of any spicy lists?

Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought I'd bring up Shirei again (and my deck specifically, The Recursion Nightmare), just because I've actually changed it around a fair bit since last time. Workhorse , Harvester of Souls , Heap Doll , Myr Sire , Diabolic Revelation , Homeward Path , Mindslaver , Arcbound Reclaimer , Sorin Markov , Dictate of Erebos , and Coffin Queen are all out in favor of Midnight Reaper , Mausoleum Secrets , Skyscanner , Dusk Legion Zealot , Sensei's Divining Top , Cabal Stronghold , Petrified Field , Burglar Rat , Liliana of the Veil , Sanguine Bond , and Exquisite Blood .

The wincons are stronger, the mana curve is lower (and more balanced), the cabal-tron package is now super-redundant (with Cabal Coffers , Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , Vesuva , Deserted Temple , Petrified Field , Cabal Stronghold , and Expedition Map ), the stax effects are stronger, and the utility spells are cheaper. I'd say the deck has gotten at least 12% better, which, admittedly, goes against what I said ealier about the deck being almost perfect (though, in my defense, I hadn't yet taken a good look at some of the cards they've been printing recently--that's the great thing about Shirei, he only gets better the more worthless black commons they release).

I might take out the sanguine bond + exquisite blood wincon for Desecrated Tomb and Torment of Hailfire . Desecrated Tomb is more value, but obviously not really a wincon unless things are going way too well for me, and Torment of Hailfire isn't nearly as straightforward as Exsanguinate , but they might be better, anyhow.

Also, I still stand by Damnation --especially now that I'm playing Midnight Reaper and Dusk Legion Zealot , my life total is kind of a precious resource--sure, toxic deluge might be worth it anyhow, but it also kills my commander (read: I get my board state back after a damnation), so it's not strictly worse--though, I might consider playing deluge over Oblivion Stone , even though that card is my one way of dealing with problem enchantments, for instance.

Oh, and, I considered adding Pitiless Plunderer , but, again, the list is really tight, and I'd rather have Black Market over him, as I don't need more than one color of mana, the mana from Black Market accumulates, and it triggers whenever anything dies (relevant with Grave Pact ).

There are probably still better Shirei decks out there that still wouldn't qualify him for tier 3, but, frankly, even given a casual glance, tier 3 could easily be split up into multiple tiers (or just not have so many commanders crammed in it, and maybe we add a new bottom tier). I mean, Ghost Council of Orzhova and Ambassador Laquatus probably shouldn't be in the same category as Aminatou, the Fateshifter and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic , for instance. All the same, just in case these somehow weren't already obvious, let me detail a few of the more interesting interactions Shirei has with some of the dorks in this deck:

Mesmeric Fiend has an O-ring trick going on where, if we sacrifice him before his first ability resolves, the second ability triggers and does nothing, then we exile a card from our opponent's hand permanently. Doing that every turn with a sac outlet can be pretty good, and if you do it for long enough, you'll have everyone topdecking. I used to play Brain Maggot in this vein, but later learned that that works differently--it's all wrapped up into one ability, so if he dies before it resolves, during resolution, we take a card, the game sees that it's dead, then we immediately return it to their hand. Not very good, obviously.

Coffin Queen has a slightly different but effectively equivalent O-ring trick--if she's sacrificed before her ability resolves, the ability resolves, but since she's dead, the game doesn't remember her as an object and the delayed trigger of the ability can never happen, so we keep the creature permanently. When Coffin Queen comes back, she is, of course, a new object with a different timestamp.

Oh, and, in case this one wasn't obvious, cards like Mindless Automaton work with Shirei because their power is 1 or less when they enter the graveyard, thus triggering Shirei's ability, and their power doesn't become more than 1 until they've already entered the battlefield, as per layering rules.

NoOneOfConsequence shirei is one of the best recursion engines (so if you're beating a dead horse, at least we can expect it from a Shirei player). He provides significant advantage, provided you play an efficient & synergistic gameplan.

There are a lot of issues with your list - those t3 decks are usually decks that are unproven (imo). Your shirei deck still needs a lot of refinement for tier 3 to Deem Worthy .

I could go on about many of the other options in your Shirei build, but maybe you should re-read the comments section. I made sure to put a healthy set of options in there for you to consider several days ago.

I'd recommend doing some solid research into the cEDH meta and how cutthroat every design decision needs to be. I think there's a discord called playEDH, or look for some cEDH decks to test against. You'll find out very fast that your shirei build may be good in some metas, but in cEDH it is not enough.

Serefin99 your comment is already a bit higher up but as for not being able to find Circu decks I can give you an answer. There is a whole discord server dedicated to Circu and it's linked in the description of my Circu build:

Brain Fart Stax

Commander / EDH Winterblast

SCORE: 27 | 24 COMMENTS | 2583 VIEWS | IN 14 FOLDERS

This has been around for quite a while and the list of BadDog was already in the tier lust as example build before the new structure was made here. We are currently working on a primer that explains the best ways to play Circ and as a teamwork this might still take a while. The previously listed deck probably got lost in the restructuration of this page, but our decks are pretty close anyway.

I haven't been on since early yesterday... and a lot has happened. Soren841 gets unbanned, drama occurs with crstisalie, a people try to calm it down, Saffi Eriksdotter , a hilariously fun combo deck is mentioned, I <3 it so yes enpc lets move it up, Soren841 calls me out for using... 'harsh' language? (strange as I haven't cursed while they/he/she/ze has, Soren841 still hasn't told me their gender xD), yeaGO says it is a glitch or something, NoOne brings up the Shirei list that caused drama before and now Cyborg is tryna explain that it is bad.

Basically this whole discussion page went from drama (like with crstisalie, Diver, Soren's argument as well as NoOne, Soren, and myself's arguement) to bannings/warnings (to try and strop drama) to drama about bannings (to try and stop bannings/warnings) to unbannings (Soren), to drama about unbannings (crstisalie, Diver and Soren) to drama about the drama (n0bunga and enpc tryna stop the drama, then Diver calls out Crstisalie again, immediately starting up more drama), to the original drama with NoOne and Cyborg this time about the same dang Shirei deck.

Point is, this list's discussion is super meta about drama and is really close to dead. I have done my piece, I have tried to make amends as best as I can, I apologized to NoOne, even to the Crstisalie drama I wasn't a part of. After being silent for a little while, I have a request for everyone, but specifically to those that started the drama, from what I can gather.

I could ask NoOneOfConsequence to not bring up their decks as good, while a lot of us disagree, or ask crstisalie, DiverDown, and Soren841 to apologize to each other and stop one-upping each other in how condescending they can be, but that isn't the problem I see. That would be a base issue with an easy solution, ban/warn them. That is what the crew of thegigibeast, ShaperSavant, tw0handt0uch, and LabManiac_Sigi all saw and decided on, and I honestly can't blame them for it off of the bat.

Yet I do blame their choice for being rash and what feels extreme to many 'veteran' commenters of the page. Over the 5-6 months this list has remained unedited and dead, immediately after we were promised changes on July 9th, while nothing was done, we had formed a community, and even before that. When they took back something that, while they owned, wasn't really theirs anymore, due to what is almost a community that evolved from this list, the owners of the list remained static and unchanging. Them coming back in and screwing with everything left a lot of us upset and feeling cheated.

You all came from what appears like nowhere, with no warnings to Soren841, just a straight banning, with no rules, just immediate warnings to a lot of us like myself, ripping apart from us the little community we cultivated. I know why you all did it, from your perspective, the discussion here became raw and unfiltered, and two, separate dramas occured at the same time. Yet we have dealt with dramas before, two may have taken us a bit more to solve, but even now I respect the other users on here, crstisalie, Soren841, DiverDown, n0bunga, NoOneOfConsequence, enpc, Winterblast, and tons of others more than ever. They all communicated their thoughts honestly and tried their best to explain their views on cEDH and the list here. That is something only tw0handt0uch when talking about Ishai's placement has done recently.

The rest of the owners have spoken that the community cultivated here is no longer wanted. Their reasons have fallen on deaf ears and their punishments have caused more drama, because the owners of this are too lazy to see what is left here. They don't want us, and don't know why we act the way we do. They punish the community they have for being a community and trying to help new players into cEDH, or other players fix up decks.

This will be the last post I put on this page unless all of the warnings are removed from every player, and Soren841 is unbanned. I hope this post explains why. I still like the idea of a tier list, so will be making my own. I wish the best of luck to everyone here, and only want the best of this list.

I hope this comment doesn't get deleted, but am unsure if me asking will change that, I will copy this and save it in case of it being deleted for evidence.

Good day to all of you. I am sorry it took me so long to realize what was happenning here so I could try to fix it in time.

The list I am working on is at Commander Tier List [WIP]

Bro wall of text what

Hide my comment under archive I see. You played me well. Very funny of one of you, thegigibeast, ShaperSavant, tw0handt0uch, or LabManiac_Sigi now feels like an absolute boss for archiving this discussion in such a way to remove my criticism of it.

I said I wouldn't comment on this page any further in that post, but as it was moved to a separate page, I assume this doesn't break any promises, right?

If anyone cares to read it, it is currently under page 358 of the archived comments, which you can check with the little white 'View Archive' button right on top of the discussion section.

Any further "meta commenting" will result in a 3 day vacation from the site. The only eligible discussions on deck pages are about polite discussions of the deck's topic themselves.

CyborgAeon Okay, in fairness, I once again did not even know Skittering Surveyor was a card, so, yeah. For my purposes, it's strictly better than Liliana's Shade , so, yeah.

I honestly tend to find Bottle Gnomes pretty relevant, as I often lose a lot of life, but I suppose I'm playing enough tutors now to where I can just grab Zulaport Cutthroat or something if that's really such a concern--I suppose I can cut him, though I will miss him.

I'm still kinda on edge about cutting Black Market --my meta is still fairly casual, but I have, in fact, won before with Exsanguinate thanks to all the mana from Black Market against a fairly competitive (but by no means optimized) Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck (and some other peeps). I might find something else to cut for Pitiless Plunderer , but I'd rather not have to choose between both of them. (Also, something worth considering is that Black Market is harder to remove than Pitiless Plunderer , though they'd need exile effects or something in any case).

As for Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood , getting 10 mana isn't a problem for me, but I get what you're saying--it's not exactly the fastest combo available, and my deck probably doesn't slow the game down enough to make it competitively viable. All the same, there's just not that many better mono-black combos.

As for running more tutors and stax effects, well, for one, I actually still want this list to be playable in my meta (it's approaching a point where it's just too cancerous relatively to what the majority of everyone else is playing, believe it or not), so adding Trinisphere and Static Orb and the like would be very unsubtle and super cutthroat (though, yes, that's exactly what would make the deck more competitive, I understand that). Secondly, the list is getting pretty tight, yet again, so I'd probably have to cut some Shirei synergy for that sort of thing, which would probably be worth it, but would make me feel that much more soulless, honestly. Can never seem to strike that balance between not playing a whole bunch of staples and having a synergetic build...

Thirdly, while they'd absolutely be worth it, I'm not playing more tutors simply due to budget considerations. I know that might sound pretty laughable considering the deck costs $830 dollars, but it's the only list I have that I own in paper (well, most of it--waiting for more cards to arrive, as I keep cutting stuff), but I've been building it up over the course of 3-4 years. Budget is no object in cEDH, I know, but it is for me--the most expensive card in the deck is about $75. Spending $100 on a card isn't something I really want to do. I might find something to cut for Cruel Tutor , though (bad as it is).

As it stands, I think Liliana's Shade and Bottle Gnomes are out and Skittering Surveyor and Scroll Rack are in. A marginal improvement--still not good enough, though, you're right. If only I could run Land Tax + Scroll Rack ...

(Oh, and, on a completely unrelated note, this might already be a thing, but I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to combo out with Timestream Navigator in a Prime Speaker Vannifar list. All you'd need is a 1-drop that recurs itself to either your hand or the battlefield, and, so long as you had enough mana and the city's blessing, you could take infinite turns. That might actually be a viable combo in cEDH).

NoOneOfConsequence: if budget and your meta (and keeping the deck fair) are both consideratuons as to card choices, I would recommend spawning a second list which is a no budget, jerk deck specifically designed for here where you can run all the Stax cards you want while still maintaining your paper list separately. That's what I have done with my Saffi list and it works really well.

enpc I guess I'll do that at some point. A bit of work, but I'd like to see exactly how good Shirei can really be.