Trying to chime in on something thats not "please read the primer" for what seems to occur somewhat naturally. Get ready for a text wall.

The argument of "what does this do with infinite mana" is half to a third of the argument imo. Any color combination can make infinite mana to an extent, yes that is true. What does that mana do is the question and why is that commander important is the reasoning to ranking. Ishkana has the ability to be a mana sink in the command zone. As is oona. The question then becomes efficiency to produce infinite mana- golgari has some problems. hence why I see it as high power to mid power. dimir has a bit of an easier time due to dramatic reversal.

Why doesnt that make every UB commander at least high power- if the commander doesnt help the gameplan then its not truely conducive to the plan youre building. Lord tresserhorn is a grixis commander. it has a lot more hoops to jump through to use storm as an archetype than jaleva/kess.

Next thing to weigh- mana cost. Yes we run fast mana. Does that mean we're going to draw the nuts every game- no. I tried cEDH testing muldrotha for a good 5 months only to find that mana cost to be overbearing. 5 mana and above is kinda hard to generate when youre also fighting to stop 3 other game plans. Now you make the argument that its the last to come down or only if you generate infinite mana. Thats a large thing to assume when youre not goldfishing. Resolving the combo is one thing, you also need to make sure it sticks. When X happens isnt a good arguement. X might never happen. X might happen then get disrupted. Natural state/natures claiming a resolved scepter is a thing. Counter wars are a thing. you need to be able to keep up consistently. thats the bottom line for high power and above.

What do i mean by consistently? concise combos, minimal dead cards, tried and true strategies. Flashhulk, storm, raza, food chain, stax. Can your commander contribute to these strategies? varolz is a sac outlet for hulk. ishkana can work with food chain, albeit weaker.

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Now where does that leave this list? Do you not agree with this placement? First answer me this, does your commander actively help the strategy youre pursuing? Secondly, have you tested these against the tiers? IRL, Trice, Xmage, Untap, i dont care where but you need to get the testing and tuning down. Theorycrafting is one thing but until you try to put it into practice, it wont work. Podmom was hyped for a while and has been brewed relentlessly. Does that make her higher than high power, no.

Also a thing to keep in mind- While this is a popular list, this is more or less a blueprint. Circu has been argued for YEARS among the community. Despite many games in many different builds, its been proven to keep up. That should let you know you dont have to abandon an idea if it can keep up but still gets hated on. Just look at Sram and Jhoira. The main thing is that the highest tiers just have the consistency proven through the times. So people naturally favor those.

TLDR; Test your lists thoroughly. This list is a nice idea to get an average of where your deck might stand but you need to remember the fundamentals of cEDH alongside MTG. Youre playing to win. Can you win? can you do it consistently? Are you having fun? If yes to all 3, why do you need validation from this list? the community will eventually pick up on it.

chaosumbreon87 I appreciate your detailed and articulate response, much better than the “DiMiR iS tHe BeSt CoLoR OoNa WiNs WiTh InFiNiTe MaNa” circlejerk that is completely missing the point. I’m not saying I have all the answers, my point isn’t that these Commanders can’t do powerful things or aren’t wincons. My point is that saying “Commander X does Y so it’s strong” isn’t really that cohesive because there’s more to consider than the one scenario or game plan where everything works as intended. I’m not saying I have all the answers or could compile a better list myself, I’m simply critiquing what is there and the evident logic behind it.

Sorry, but I can't be any more clear than I already have been. Your argument/assessment of what is more viable over the other is just wrong. You can sit here and plug your ears, and stomp your feet all you like, but that won't change that fact.

Hello guys, Just found this list and was comparing my decks to them. Noticed you didn't have a Jodah deck to compare to so thought I would share mine! I don't believe it's as competitive as you're looking for, but I think its a good start point as I have won many a game against other high power lists. Here he is: The Infinity Gauntlet.

Brolamog_the_Infinite_Higher it would seem that you missed the point. The argument isn't about colours. The argument isn't that these generals are more optimal than others. Unfortunately, the best thing for you to do - in order to understand these placements better is to playtest and look at primers.

Your argument "I can do x with infinite mana" is great! Nice - a lot of decks do play an infinite mana sink in the deck, or an endlessly loopable spell ie dramatic reversal. The consolidated list here is to provide decklists for decks that have (supposedly) the most concise & efficient win conditions and ways to achieve that.

I would argue that the most efficient (card wise) generals "do x with infinite mana" not because every colour can do it, but because the general costs no card slots and streamlines your gameplan's consistency by being (effectively) always available.

There are many other decks with many cool combos. Just because the commander HAS a combo in their colours doesn't make them the top tier - but it means that initially they're ranked higher on this list based on how efficiently they can reach a competitively viable goal.

The tiers here are only expressed thanks to data gathered by a host of cEDH players. A lot of these decks have very good decks built with the commander as a sink because it's efficient. Why is prossh lower than others? Likely because despite the data - it shows that he's not as strong as other builds.

The varolz deck is reported as strong as it is thanks to a lot of testing and has proven to offer enough to a game that it's consistently viable to sac hulk to varolz. The deck ratings are based more on consistency now, as the greatest strategies are run across the board in cEDH.

If this meant that I could reasonably submit a decklist for Teysa by praetor's grasping my opponent's protean hulk, I would. But meta is ignored in the list.

IE: Sisay. Imo - that deck is selesnya, sure it can tutor from the command zone, but the restriction is far too damning. Despite my personal belief that it shouldn't be considered as strong as it is - the deck has proven itself to be among the most consistent decks with a very flexible strategy.

Your point that: I have to say, this tier list is bad. Ishkanah, Grafwidow is nowhere near a high power level Commander, and to put the Spider Tribal Commander above Edgar Markov , Athreos, God of Passage and Skullbriar, the Walking Grave is absurd seems flawed at best. Ishkana is an efficient deck that achieves infinite mana & kills the table with ease, same goes for oona. a jank spider tribal commander deck it most certainly is not.

Furthermore:

If we're counting Protean Hulk combo decks as "competitive" there's plenty more worthy commanders to consider why yes! In fact there are 75 mono green options alone. The varolz deck in question is (evidently) better than those as a protean hulk deck.

In summary: Honestly, this list comes across like the author just put a few decks everyone knows is good at the top while that may seem like the case, there's a lot of helpful information to be found in the description of the list, lots of fantastic discussion in the archives to read about, many decks listed (usually each with their own spicy primer on WHY the deck is good). Sorry I'm not sorry, pal. But if you dislike the list, then you may have to put in a lot of effort to convince the owner(s - oh yeah, not just one person deciding. These decisions are made over time and discussed at length - usually by more than just one of the authors) by putting in some elbow grease & proving that the decks you find more competitive are just that.

Tl;Dr: do some reading, have a well thought out point with evidence before insulting many people's time & effort.

I'm still relatively inexperienced compared to many, but what prevents shu yun from being tier 3? I would not out him higher than tier 3, but I'm curious to the reasoning and thought process for his placement and really the placements in general.

Hello, I am an edh player and I really love Prime Speaker Vannifar and I would like anyone in charge of this list to look at my deck here : http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-true-food-chain/?cat=type&sort=cost I brewed her up in the most competitive way possible and combined the Protean Hulk combo and the Deadeye Navigator combo I believe this deck is competitive, maybe max power, idk

“In the context of having infinite mana, I'm saying that Oona (or any infinite mana/spell Commander) as a win condition in the Command Zone isn't necessary, as there should be a critical mass of tutors to the point that we should have a few in hand every game.”

I’m sorry, but this is just flat out as wrong as wrong can be. If you want to prove it to yourself, assume that 12 cards in your 99 are tutors or combo pieces. For simplicity, assume any 3 will do. Now assume you draw 13 or so cards (to represent the first few turns of a game + your opening hand). Now compare the probability of hitting 2 or more of your 12 (within the top 13 cards of your deck) to the probability of hitting 3 or more of your 12. The difference is significant, and doesnt even factor in colored mana challenges of casting 3 cards vs 2.

The difference is legit 1.36%. The difference between hitting 2 or more in 12 cards and 3 or more cards in 12 is 1.36%. Literally only case that matters is hitting 2 in 12 cards. If youre arguing a combo piece in the CZ vs in deck, CZ combos are favored in moderation. The main argument has always been mana efficiency and reducing dead cards. HD+muldrotha is a 2 card combo. it still doesnt make muldrotha favored.

The numbers are closer to 49% (to hit 2 or more out of 13) vs 19% (to hit 3 or more out of 13).

an edit to a previous comment of mine, I have completed the pg for my Prime Speaker Vannifar deck and it has been refurbished and a detailed description has been added. you can find the link here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vannifar-evolution-101/?cb=1549830006

I'm really not all that impressed with vannifar, she's pretty cool, and she's strongish, but pod lines are convoluted and take up a decent amount of deckspace, and the hoping for her to make it through to turn 3-4 is a gamble and a half. Which line is considered the best right now? I've been using spellseeker lines for now because I dont have a TYE [rip]. Maybe she will be powered up in a later set, but as for now I think she is going to be more of a boogeyman than anything. On I'm working on a lavinia list, even though I already like shaper's enough but I guess he doesn't want to put it up on the list. When are you gonna start filling out links to some of the high power commanders, I remember most of the links and makers myself, but even just to have the unupdated old lists on here would be a boon to anyone trying to get info on their prospective commander. I'm free a lot so I have a bunch of time to make some lists that we are missing including the old ones [like Ramos and stuff] And shuyun isn't considered strong because even though in French he can insta you if he connects once, in multi he has to live and connect 3 times over the course of 3 turns, even if you make him infinitely big with dram scepter he still has to swing 3 times or you have to jump through extra hoops

I'm really not all that impressed with vannifar, she's pretty cool, and she's strongish, but pod lines are convoluted and take up a decent amount of deckspace, and the hoping for her to make it through to turn 3-4 is a gamble and a half. Which line is considered the best right now? I've been using spellseeker lines for now because I dont have a TYE [rip]. Maybe she will be powered up in a later set, but as for now I think she is going to be more of a boogeyman than anything. On I'm working on a lavinia list, even though I already like shaper's enough but I guess he doesn't want to put it up on the list. When are you gonna start filling out links to some of the high power commanders, I remember most of the links and makers myself, but even just to have the unupdated old lists on here would be a boon to anyone trying to get info on their prospective commander. I'm free a lot so I have a bunch of time to make some lists that we are missing including the old ones [like Ramos and stuff] And shuyun isn't considered strong because even though in French he can insta you if he connects once, in multi he has to live and connect 3 times over the course of 3 turns, even if you make him infinitely big with dram scepter he still has to swing 3 times or you have to jump through extra hoops

Hi Shammalamma, I'd like to say -- good question. Why are generals ranked as they are in this tier list? It seems strange that cards like Oloro - a classic pubstompy general isn't at the top tier, or the same with many other friendly decks.

This is designed as a guide for players on the most cutthroat decks available - abusing stax-based locks, infinite combos & game-winning strategies as fast as they can be assembled. Looking at some of the decklists in the top tiers will show you how crazy this can get - with the general in some cases (like General Tazri , Godo, Bandit Warlord , Sidisi, Undead Vizier ) just being used to tutor for a win condition.

Saitama (Shu-yun) is a one-punch machine gun. He's able to murder a player very quickly, with his own prowess meaning that cards like Stubborn Denial are more efficient negates. However, while he supports his own & is a very cool deck to play - he's not very competitively viable - as voltron strategies in this require three turns to hit three opponents generally. Whereas playing kiki-jiki and pestermite requires only one turn. Look at the speed of some of the 'flash-hulk' decks.

The generals are ranked as above with the card's effectiveness toward the strategy of the deck in mind and mostly based on the effectiveness/strength/consistency of the deck that it's paired with, rather than the colours that they provide.

Alright I know I sound like a broken record, but the description of the update says it all. I have worked hard to optimize the deck for play and have tested it intensely. I believe it deserves one final look. thegigibeast ShaperSavant tw0handt0uch LabManiac_Sigi. If I could have the spare time of any of you to take a little time to look this over, I would be very thankful. The deck has received it's fair share of criticism but I believe this should do it. You can find the link here. I believe that should do it. Once again, Cheers! D.F.

Hi DF. I can tell that you are passionate about your deck and have put a lot of time into developing it. I like that you have a variety of angles to play from. My concern is that in folding so many combos in, you are going to be carrying a lot of dead slots and cut into your interaction suite. I count

P Drake, bdouble, deadeye, shield w, sage, ornithopter, memnite, ezuri, W drake, t mage, tdon, twater minion, staff, gog, fatestitcher, archanist, exarch, hippocamp. These are all cards that arent great topdecks or in openers.

There’s also a few card assesments that indicate a bit of immaturity in the deck: things like not including Mystic Remora, quite possibly the most powerful card in the format, and opting for Arcane Denial over things like Delay.

I think continued development and live testing will present you with some good opportunities to see which lines arent as effective, and refine your deck so that it is more consistent yet carries less dead weight. Good luck, enjoy the journey!

Mystic Remora is the most powerful card in the format?

Yeah, here's what happens with that card pretty much every time I see it:

They play it, one other player plays maybe one noncreature spell in their turn cycle, then maybe another one or two next turn cycle, then they sacrifice it because they don't want to keep paying cumulative upkeep. That's not even Ancestral Recall , and Ancestral wouldn't even be the most powerful card in the format if it wasn't banned.

You say some really presumptuous things sometimes, honestly.

Remora is good, but I believe Mana Crypt is the best card in the format.

Alright, I have taken your advice to heart, tw0handt0uch the deck has been more finely tuned with the least amount of dead cards possible and has more mana abilites in the early game as well as plenty of disruption for 1 mana. Please re-look this over because this is Prime Speaker Vannifar 's capability. Big thanks to Soren841 for the testing.

Hey there!

First of all, thank you so much for all your efforts at keeping this Tier list so consistent! It's always nice to have some Tier references to look at when we're planning to brew with some new EDH ideas.

I have a little suggestion to present because I was surprised to see Daghatar the Adamant in the Low-Power Tier.

Considering Daghatar the Adamant as a commander that gives you access to 3 colors and a situational (needs at least one another creature on board (could be under an opponent control)) mana sink with infinite mana (by no means as powerful as other commanders that provide mana sink by their own like, for example - pretty much a bad example given that she provides access to blue, Oona, Queen of the Fae ), I think he at least deserves a spot in the Mid-Power table. With infinite mana (not really hard to pull off with black to tutor all the needed pieces), you may put infinite counters on target X other creature(s) and you have infinite ETB triggers. It makes it a pretty decent/solid pick for a casual EDH deck, and I could even see him as a tricky commander for competitive purposes (that being said, I don't play much cEDH and he certainly won't be good enough).

He also synergizes beautifully with persist mechanic alongside some sacrifice outlet in order to have infinite ETB on cards such as Woodfall Primus . In the same colors, Gaveh is without a single doubt better for this archetype, but Daghatar remains a potent Commander pick.

Here's my casual Daghatar decklist if you mind giving it a look > Adamant Rules.

I decided not to run any sort of infinite mana combo because I find them boring (personal opinion) and I wanted to stay on a casual level to interact fully with my playgroup. So it's not the best template if you're looking for an optimized Daghatar list, but I'm convinced he has some powerful tricks' potential.

NoOneOfConsequence if that's what it does mostly in your experience, then it did a great job in slwoing people down A FUCKING LOT. People have two options when facing an early remora: slow down and not progress their gameplan while the remora player does OR ignore it and aggressively push for a win, hoping that the remora player can't capitalize enough on the cards they got (also because they might have too few mana). And the thing is, if just one player starts to race into the remora, everyone else has to follow or fall behind far too much.

And that for just one blue mana. It's either slowdown for opponents or carddraw, often both at the same time. Perfect.

@ShreddedByCrows

First off; I’m no mod here nor a regular poster. Just a spike lurker who likes to keep an eye on the ground despite lacking cEDH group and decks. Also I’m always glad to see interest in non-tier generals even for powerful ‘casual’ purposes. So what follows is in good faith.

I don’t want to sound rude, but what exactly is your argument for moving Dagathar?

You yourself said that he’s a suboptimal choice by pointing out several commanders that are far better than him. I see no upside that would encourage ma for instance to pick it up. Abzan offers better commanders, for comp purposes, he might be a vanilla. As for his ability, you’d need infinite mana to make something infinetly big. Other manasink commanders end the game on the spot, while he requires another creature and an actual way to turn that into a win. IMO it requires jumping through too many hoops.

And even all this considered, you provided a casual list you yourself said is suboptimal and that you’re sure that he can offer much. If your list can’t prove your claims or be used for a decklist database, what’s the purpose of linking it?

Again, I’m happy to see interest in a general outside the regular pool of a few dozen that get all the attention. But even as a non-competitive player myself, I don’t understand why should I, or anyone, pick Daghatar more eagerly because of your imput.

JohnnyCRO You got a point. I played my Daghatar on paper for the first time in my playgroup (who's mostly composed of pretty High-Power lists) last Saturday, and I was amazed by the results. I guess I get too easily hyped.

I'm not a regular cEDH player either, which makes my argument in Daghatar's favor even more awkward, but I just wanted to share my experience of its abilities to take up the advantage on a more casual game and thought it was accurate. I realize now I wrote my previous comment with too much enthusiasm...

I'm not trying to say that Daghatar is at the same power level as other well established Abzan commanders (like Karador, Ghave, Anafenza, etc.), but I just want to show that he isn't a terrible and unlogical option either.

The whole point of my previous comment was based on the definition given to Tier 5 commanders listed there: In the context of this list, the Casual category is reserved for Generals that don't provide a mechanical reason to play them - some are vanilla creatures, others are entirely unusable without significant workarounds.

Even if Daghatar isn't the most competitive choice, he still offers a lot of opportunities for a powerful casual commander-centered deck. Its abilities are far from being meaningless and you can build a consistent deck that revolves around him and uses him as a combo piece/win condition you get permanent access to. IMO, when I wrote my previous comment, it wasn't in adequation with its classification on the Tier list. I felt like he's more than just a vanilla creature, but I can from now on also understand why he's counted among them. While he needs some set-up to pull off a combo, he has the potential of being a game ender. But pretty much the same is true for a lot of, if not every, commanders when you've access to infinite mana + another combo piece onto the battlefield. So he's, in fact, nothing better than any other multicolored commander listed on the Casual Tier.

That said, I have to thank your fair criticism. It helped me to realize I was overreacting/over-evaluating things without any realistic background to defend my talking. It was... dumb. I understand why the mods considered him as a vanilla commander.

The decklist I shared was just standing as a rough example of a decklist trying to exploit Daghatar abilities in order to make it a powerhouse. I thought it was a great addition to support my poorly formulated point. It doesn't really matter.

So in conclusion, that suggestion was probably a bit too spontaneous, based on the fact that I just finished building Daghatar on paper and was too hyped after testing him only once since then.

ShreddedByCrows for what it's worth I read Mid Power and Casual to be the same thing.

Anything that swims in competitive games (cough cough Anafenza, the Foremost Stax cough cough) should be moved up to High Power imo. If you're not in High Power trying new/fringe shit and you can't make an argument for a pod composition -- in a competitive setting -- that you're well suited to take advantage of then you're playing Casual as far as I'm concerned.

Hissp that's one cheeky plug for anafenza... I've only seen an anafenza cEDH deck at my lgs which felt like a reasonably strong pod deck.

However, ShreddedByCrows I like to see passion in a player - the passion you have for Daghatar is great! But unless there's a reason to pod him in order to win, I genuinely can't see any significance to running him over Ghave.

So - with regard to the (now moot) discussion about generals with the same capabilities (ie Lord of Tresserhorn & Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge both in the cz of a grixis storm deck): I just want to reiterate that moving decks up/down based on their similarity to another deck is not common. However! If there's a different style of deck with a strong win which Daghatar enables (not necessarily better than ghave) then that build would be much more likely to be added to the list (regardless of power level).

So get brewing and stay Adamant :D