I guess I in a way I am questioning the criteria for Teysa Karlov being a mid power commander. A tuned Teysa Karlov deck can run pretty strong without her even on the board. and then when she is summoned it is like hitting a turbo button. while I will say she is not CEDH by no means. At my LGS she has shown that with a stable mana base and tuned responses to turn out so dynamic wins. just curious. about your views on her

I guess I in a way I am questioning the criteria for Teysa Karlov being a mid power commander. A tuned Teysa Karlov deck can run pretty strong without her even on the board. and then when she is summoned it is like hitting a turbo button. while I will say she is not CEDH by no means. At my LGS she has shown that with a stable mana base and tuned responses to turn out so dynamic wins. just curious. about your views on her

Inkmoth_ you are right. Cyclonic rift works in some games of cEDH; but what I neglected to mention was: some decks need this. CVT is a good example. Mass removal & win cons that work through multiple stax pieces are two things that the deck has few of.

Example 1: Laboratory Maniac . One of the most common win cons besides Aetherflux Reservoir & Flash with Protean Hulk . These win conditions generally only need to remove 0-2 stax pieces in order to win. Whether that's using Smelt on Null Rod or Chain of Vapor on Trinisphere . These win conditions are more prevalent in the format & need answers far greater than rift. Rift is a 2 mana bounce spell. Which is usually what it's used for.

Your example of Sigi's overloaded rift into a win is fair. However, my argument isn't that it's bad. Just that it's used in fewer decks BECAUSE it is too narrow & the upside doesn't get used enough that one could justifiably run it in any cEDH brew that includes blue.

Example 2: storm likes to play lots of spells. Currently in the top tiers we have 5 (I think) storm lists which are all multicoloured and which use more efficient answers ie: Nature's Claim , Winds of Rebuke . Still not saying rift is bad. Just that top tier decks don't necessarily run it.

On the contrary: stax decks like GAAIV, CVT etc are quite likely to run it! As the mass bounce is more likely to be readily available. My point was that it's not enough of a prevalent card for people to talk about banning it. Though I do agree that it is strong & works in some decks.

I must say I conpeketeky disagree with the najeela list, that list is far inferior to flash hulk najeela which also can do the combat ways to win via repository or derevi etc

Please checkout winterblasts list for najeela as it is actually amazing

I apologise for my bad spelling

I was wondering what is keeping Krav, the Unredeemed from being high power? Is it simply his higher mana cost? He seems like some really pushed card draw to me, and while Regna, the Redeemer isn't exactly a great card by any means its still a partnership able to take advantage of the benefits of having 2 creatures in the zone. Thoughts? Im personally considering swapping my Karlov deck over to them because currently I have Karlov/Regna in the 99 of my Karlov deck but whenever I play one and fetch the other they just seem to do so much work for me.

no offence, but where the fuck is toothy

Connorav I imagine Toothy is supposed to be in mid along with Pir since they're sort of a package deal.

Boy, there has been a lot of clamoring about moving various commanders up to High Power lately. It kinda makes sense that it'd be one of the most contested tiers, but the problem here is that tier 3 should really just be split up into two tiers--whoever it was that suggested that idea some time ago, I agree. The old fogeys who are generally always in favor of the status quo look at tier 3 and see Azami, Lady of Scrolls , Kaalia of the Vast , and Atraxa, Praetors' Voice and say that Teysa Karlov and Krav, the Unredeemed and Niv-Mizzet, Parun and Anafenza, the Foremost and ahem Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker aren't worthy of high power, but neglect all the other commanders in high power ( Nath of the Gilt-Leaf , Kestia, the Cultivator , Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper , Thada Adel, Acquisitor , etc.) who aren't quite so good as the previous examples.

Basically, if it provides an easy win condition for a control/stax deck or is a dumb cumpster for some colorless infinite mana combo, the consensus is that it's at least tier 3, but apart from that, the criteria seem to be a little vaguely applied as far as said tier goes. I think it'd be easiest to just make a tier 3.5 and adjust the criteria definitions rather than move a whole bunch of commanders up and some commanders down, but that's just me.

I personally think Chainer is the best mono B non-tutor general.

You aren't giving Nath enough credit at all. As a stax list, he is incredibly powerful. A Sadistic Hypnotist hitting the board with Nath on the field is hard to recover from if it sticks early enough because it can keep gas out of your hand. He's also one of the few commanders who can break parity with Smokestack and do it well. Stax really earned its namesake because of Smokestack, and the degeneracy it has with Nath makes him incredibly potent. He is one of the OG Stax commanders, and he is still quite powerful in most metas.

The problem with your suggestions, as well as what this list struggles with is just the widely apparent level of subjectivity. Which, to an extent is fine because there's no way to gauge tier rankings precisely without some level of subjectivity. However, the criteria for tiers needs to be expanded upon and defined better (Tier changes by 0.5 increments would be great).

On top of all of this, the authors would need to be more actively involved rather than pop in maybe like two or three notable times a year. This list is dead and completely meaningless to me. Prior to the discussions that started popping last night, nobody posted here in five days. This list was bumped completely off my notifactions for a few days, and that just hasn't ever happened before. I hardly stop by and visit this list anymore because I have no reason to do so. I don't feel welcome to actively participate in discussions anymore either and I'm just over the whole thing.

I'm unsubscribing to this list for a number of reasons. I'm primarily doing so because I don't feel as if I can voice my thoughts and opinions here and feel as if my voice has been heard and taken into account by the authors. I have been pushing for Anafenza, the Foremost to be bumped up to High Power, and there have been several discussions about her since that unanimously have come to the conclusion that she belongs in tier 3. I've been making that case ever since the authors made a this huge overhaul last summer, yet I have never once received a single thought from any of the authors about her placement. The Anafenza discussion and notion for a higher tier gets brought up quite a lot too, so I can't imagine that the authors haven't seen it brought up before. Honestly, some actual feedback and thoughts on the subject matter would be nice, but it hasn't received a single ounce of recognition for several months now and I think we and Anafenza deserve at least some sort of consideration.

I have lost a lot of respect for this list, and this no longer feels like a welcome and active community hub like it used to be. Cheers.

I agree with DiverDown. The mod(s) of this list before and since it changed hands aren't engaged enough to meet the needs of the community that follows along.

I know many of the mods are very active in the cedh community at large and doing really great work there.

Perhaps part of the problem is that the cedh community at large shuns the idea of tier lists holding much value. Yet, there must be at least 1 knowledgeable and respected member who sees the value of engaging in thoughtful debate and discussion on cedh deckbuilding theory within this forum.

thegigibeast,LabManiac_Sigi,ShaperSavant,tw0handt0uch, please consider recruiting someone who is interested in engaging with this community more frequently. I know many of you are doing great work elsewhere, and I think his place has more potential than is currently being realized.

Yeah, I posted a deck of mine for consideration a few times, and I know for a fact a mod saw it, but never even so much as responded to me (even though I literally watched the person comment, and respond to others who posted their lists for consideration around the same time I posted mine).

I'm not mad, but it's kinda rude, but whatever.

Diver Down You know who else plays Sadistic Hypnotist and breaks the symmetry of Smokestack ? Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker . Hell, if you're way ahead, you can put as many counters on that damn thing as you want, and you sacrifice dozens of creatures to Hypnotist. Also, he was printed before Nath of the Gilt-Leaf , so Nath can suck my chode!

(Okay, in all seriousness, he actually does something relevant even without additional dudes on the field, and also gives you access to some great green stax effects, but I digress)

As for this list being dead? Well, yeah, basically. People have been suggesting all sorts of changes for a while now that simply haven't been implemented, whether they've been largely agreed with or not.

I wouldn't know what else the authors of this list are doing in the 'cedh community' because I'm not giving my phone number to the cEDH Discord, which I assume they're a part of. Look, I get it's a stupidly big server, but you're never getting my phone number just because I'm a cEDH player.

Some of them are active on Discord, so they contribute that way.

The expectation cannot be that every post gets a response. The mods of this list are mods on the reddit sub, main cedh discord, many of the deck specific discords, maintain primers, organize tournaments, make podcast and video content, and most have full time jobs on top of that. I check this thread about once every day or 2. When things come up about this list, we chat chat about them in (yet another) discord channel. Responding to every request would take allllll day. The purpose of us coming over was not necessarily to debate every placement on a realtime basis, and spend hours discussing card selection in certain decks. It was to establish a list that reflected more accurately the high level decks that we see everyday in leagues and tournaments and ranked comp play and in the large communities that we all play in. New commanders will be added, placements will occasionally be shuffled, but this isnt a deck help thread or a rate-my-pet-deck thread. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but it’s reality.

And I agree that it shouldn't be any of those things, but when you have an introduction that clearly states "If you would like to provide suggestions, please leave a comment (and ideally a link to a decklist)", it kind of invites at least some of the behaviors that you are saying this thread doesn't cater to.

Okay, I think that about tears it, honestly. You don't have time to actually make this list something more useful than what effectively amounts to a mirror for a small coterie of cEDH players to stare into on occasion, even though the description of it makes it sound like something entirely different? Fine. I don't have time to keep bothering with it, then. It's one thing to say that not every post needs a response, and another thing entirely to clearly outline all of the reasons why you shouldn't even be maintaining a list like this, then condescendingly explain why you're doing so anyway.

Everyone, go check out Soren841 and SynergyBuild's tier list--I guess they don't organize enough tournaments and make enough podcast and video content to be able to neglect actually maintaining a functional tier list that keeps up with the pace of the game.

What should be unbanned? : https://goo.gl/forms/m7ywipBjM5msjzRl1

If you would like to provide suggestions, please leave a comment (and ideally a link to a decklist). I think it's awesome that they included that sentence on their page and while that statement alone may merit the backlash, I don't think it's fair to expect your suggestion to be immediately considered. Nothing about that statement stipulates a timeframe and I'd imagine there's a process that's not being taking into account when asking for results so soon after.

NoOneOfConsequence: I understand your plight, but there are more diplomatic ways to approach the situation. It ain't cool to go as far as to try and veer people away from OP's content because you have a personal gripe. The list was a free service that wasn't owed to anyone and it is updated a realistic amount of times given the sort of content that they have to slog through.

Thanks to the moderators' consistently high-quality content that demonstrates a high level of format knowledge, I have personally grown a lot by learning from them. They have been open-minded to changing their perspectives (and the list) when they're shown a good idea that has consistent work put in to optimize it.

I would have to agree with Inkmoth_, if your showing a list you can't expect the results right away. Especially since putting together the deck list itself as well as comparing and testing it out against other decks against the same level or higher. In addition they would have to be tested throughout a duration and show results consistently.

I agree with Diver Down & Hissp. It's incredibly unfortunate that cEDH is so popular on so many other platforms that it means that TappedOut (honestly likely the poorest one for communication - just in comparison to the IM discord & reddit which are interaction giants) is given the least love.

Tl;dr: You want to be known for having the spiciest brew? Brew spicy stuff & do the legwork to be noticed. Posting it in one place & blaming others for your lack of notoriety is unfair. Hard work earns fame.

My issue was being blatantly ignored twice by the same mod, while he openly responded to basically everyone else who posted a deck for consideration at that time. And he uses the excuse of having too little time (even though typing several words to explain why a list isn't going to be considered takes almost no time at all, even if it was just one sentence explaining why, so that excuse is literally a cop out). I don't honestly care about notoriety, it's just the principle of the matter. Openly responding to others, while blatantly ignoring a list that I posted, that I know for a fact is on par with the other list on this thread, is pretty sketchy. This list clearly tells people that if they want to make recommendations, to post a deck list, but what's the point of taking time out of your day to offer suggestions, when some of the people running this page don't even have enough respect for people's time, to even take 30 seconds to respond to people who were trying to help, ESPECIALLY when they're already responding to other suggestions that were made in the first place? If you're responding to everyone else, how hard is it to type a few more words to explain why a list isn't being considered? It's a slap in the face is what it is. Complete lack of respect (I can't wait to hear the response of: respect is earned, not given... I'm waiting for it). Again, idgaf about notoriety, it's just the principle of the matter. Yeah, I get it, we all have lives outside of MTG, and the internet, but that doesn't make anyone special, and using it as an excuse literally doesn't mean anything, if it applies to virtually everyone.

Some of the mods seem like great people, and I truly respect them, and the time they've taken to educate players on the format, but the people running this list are human, just like everyone else, and what they think isn't always the be all, end all of the format.

Even if you're not getting many responses here in the comments, we do take everyone's input into account when we discuss potential placement changes. One example to mention here would be Anafenza. While many of you feel that she should be moved up, we've talked about her multiple times already and did not come to a unanimous conclusion. And this highlights the part that most of you might be missing. Many of the users here seem to expect that placement changes are made shortly after someone leaves a comment about a Commander they think is misplaced on the list. However, it's not that simple. We discuss every potential change, often more than once, until we reach a conclusion that everyone of us feels comfortable with. Coming to those conclusions includes reading and assessing every argument that was brought forth in the comment section that's relevant to a particular placement on top of bringing up and discussing our own arguments. We want to do a proper job here, and doing a proper job doesn't constitute looking at the comments and doing what every single commenter wants. Doing this properly takes time. Some of that time is made at the cost of responding to comments because as unfortunate as that may be, it's as tw0handt0uch said - our primary job is to maintain the list, not to debate in the comment section. So while our engagement in the context of this list may not be directly with all you commenters, we still engage with the arguments you make in your comments. Those of you who give constructive feedback and make thoughtful arguments in your comments are being heard, and your input does matter a lot to us and our continuous work to improve this list.

One change we are going to make right now is posting scheduled monthly updates where we present the changes we're making and why we're making them. If there are no changes in an update, we're going to mention why we ultimately decided against some of the suggestions brought forth in the comment section or why we haven't come to a conclusion yet if we're still undecided about a particular placement.

IMHO people would be happy if you implement the idea of monthly updates.

We all have lives outside of Magic. Even in Magic, it’s understandable that not everyone can get what they want. But it would be awesome if we would be reminded on the monthly basis that the project is still alive.

IMO it’s ok even if you’re “late” with some changes. I believe that the sole fact that we can expect a monthly confirmation you are still on the job would make many people around here happy.

Just my 2 cents though.