Maybe someone can answer this for me, is Bolas's Citadel a card worth testing in cEDH, or is the 3BBB mana cost simply too unwieldy even for such a large upside?

I'd think that things like Thrasios by himself would be a good way to clear single lands in between spells, but maybe that's overkill.

I just wanted to know why Vial Smasher the Fierce is tier 1 and Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow is tier 3. They seem to have a similar ability to me. A clarification would be helpful.

n0bunga its set to tier 3 on my screen not tier 2. I can understand a difference of a single tier like you said, just not a difference of 2 full tiers. Thus the earlier question. Is it just miss-marked?

i respectfully disagree that Niv Mizzet Reborn isn't on the tier 1 list. The first sliver is deserving of a spot there as well for a food chain build, but General Tazri is one of the most consistent and amazing combo deck around, and niv reborn is a better version for food chain build with it. I think Niv Reborn deserves a spot alongside Urza and The First Sliver in terms of power.

also, yisan has been getting weaker in comparison to the other top tier commanders... so i think he should be dropped. just my opinion though

time will tell, things will change. we will see

n0bunga has your 2 lists have been considered by the moderators of the tier list ? Because I think she can be upgrade from high power to competitive level.

Well some of this changes make no sense, teferi into competitive from maximum power, kraum and vial smasher into max power...? ok

I don't see how Zacama, Primal Calamity isn't a high power commander. In my experience it's a quite powerful combo commander, needing only Temur Sabertooth to generate infinite mana, and generating considerable card advantage with Greater Good .

A combo that requires 11 lands in play isn’t really what a deck with competitive mindset should be aiming to do, even outside fully competitive circles.

High power decks should be able to hold their own and win in competitive pods if well-tuned. The problem is, they can’t do this consistently enough. And frankly I don’t see Zacama doing well compared to the likes of Meren or Mizzix which require much less setup to win. While decks like Azami or Daretti, though not quite as competitive, can still pose a threat at competitive tables and win games reliably.

But if you have a list to share, I for one would love to see it.

JohnnyCRO say that to cEDH gates; that deck wins with Maze's End (ignore the fact that it's the dumbest thing ever).

Above it's been mentioned that Teferi is moved down for more than one reason BattousaiYngwie & ManaLink1 - if you look at the strengths that the newer, slimmer version of Teferi (Urza's current build) you'll see refinements that make the deck theoretically better. Then, there's the case of 'Why not just have both there?' - this could apply to food-chain niv, food-chain tazri, food-chain sliver queen if one really wanted. The list doesn't put all 5c commanders that COULD win with food-chain in the highest spot, and similarly it tries to represent the diverse decks by giving food chain (and mono blue artifacts, etc.) their own suggested representative general (in this case: Food-chain sliv is considered most optimal, and for that reason xe represents the 'Food-chain' build).

While it's true that all decks can run a combo within them, this list aims to suggest optimal generals for the decks around them, as opposed to suggesting optimal combos and all of the generals that could play them.

Hope that doesn't come across as rude, etc. If you're interested in the debates of why any of these cards are considered more powerful, check out the lengthy discussions on the cedh reddit - you'll find a lot of healthy points.

CyborgAeon any link to the gates deck ? sound like a fun thing

I would argue that Selvala, Explorer Returned is Competitive and not just "high power". If anyone has played against a build similar to: Do You Like to Draw Cards ? you'd understand.

This Selvala deck list constantly wins Turn 3 and is EXTREMELY resilient.

I love that selvala is considered competitive. It's an awesome deck, it's fun, political and strong. But the general consensus is that your win condition is too risky for it to be considered a higher power deck.

But it's ok, ToffMcSoft some day people will realise that decks like godo and selvala are the strongest.

skyhaven this deck is hilarious. You've been warned. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/cedh-maze/

I reckon it could use some updates, and with 2020 around the corner it may have a lot more cool options to play.

I would switch Najeela with tasigur, and Vannifar with gaddock tegg

can we talk about kykar here? seems pretty strong, and opens up some divergent control options without killing our commander (or prtners) as well as strong synergy with skull clamp and mana echoes. seems like it still has enough tutor power to garuntee easy dramatoscepter wins with him not only producing value fromt he interaction, but also being able to turn it into a win with only 2 mana for the scepter, similar to circu. ideas for divergent are jin gitaxias avacyn, or whirlpool alms collector, both of which put you far enough ahead to utterly dominate with jin avacyn being a near death sentence alone if landed early enough, we also have access to a slew of good hate that fits our non creature clause, like smoke, rip, narset, teferi time raveler, karn, and strangle hold. as a guess he seems better than narset, coming down earlie and being less glass cannon. and probably maintaining decent function in deck without him on board since you dont have to put so much cheese in the 99. thoughts

also cedh gates got a commander as well lol, too hype for kykar (and hopefully a playable temur commander too, why do we still only have 1 that isnt just striclty worse than something else?) sorry for double post

Hotcake_Gotsyrup you'll have more success discussing such spice in the cedh discord (there's even a specific cord for kykar! https://discord.gg/ZDnKQp)

I'm a little disappointed that it doesn't have any synergy with kicker, but despite that personal gripe there's a neat build that uses Divergent Transformations into Magus of the Future and Trinket Mage . Seems strange, but the mage fetches Sensei's Divining Top and Kykar makes top cost 0(ish), so you're then able to draw your deck for free.

I like the idea of cracker-thief (spirits love crackers) where the deck abuses Smothering Tithe + wheels like opus-thief in order to "disrupt" opponents and assemble a lock via Stasis + tithe (or any manner of locks you'd like) / any simple a+b combo.

Kykar looks like there's some awesome spice just beneath the surface. If you come up with anything spicy, I'm sure we'd all love to hear your thoughts.

Hey thegigibeast, ShaperSavant and LabManiac_Sigi,

thanks for updating the list! I definitely agree with moving Thrasios / Tymna into their own tier. I would also appreciate a Thrasios ban for a healthier Metagame.

With Tymna, the "centralizing mini-game" you mentioned isn't that problematic in my opinion, as the strategy of abusing the low creature count in cEDH is quite a common thing (looking at Edric, Spymaster of Trest , Najeela, the Blade-Blossom or even Tana, the Bloodsower ) and is actually contributing to the diversity of the format.

I would like to hint on the lack of the old Tier 1,5 category. To me there are some Commanders that just don't belong into the same tier. For example, a Niv-Mizzet Reborn + Food Chain Strategy with a consistent T3 win would absolutely rank up higher than a fairly inconsistent Godo, Bandit Warlord Strategy around Stax and Helm of the Host ... To me, that also counts for Teferi, Temporal Archmage , Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge , Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder . Please consider to add that category again.

To conclude my comment I would like to recommend moving Azami, Lady of Scrolls from High Power into the Competitive Category. I think that Deck can compete with other Mono U Strategys (Baral, Kefnet - not being as strong as Teferi). In my lokal game store I played several times with Azami in the EDH-Tournament against multiple other cEDH-Decks like Breakfast Hulk, Blood Pod, Shimmer Zur, Gitrog... and I still have to lose a single game with it. While it's a very subjective impression, it just feels wrong to me to see it in Tier 3.

@Fellin22 - how are you figuring that Tasigur is better than Najeela?

Najeela is a 5 color tool box that admittedly doesn't need her to win, but she can by herself as well. She's broken by numerous cards to break parity and give infinite combo steps as well. Tasigur doesn't have that same potential, because his ability's target is up to your opponent so it's nowhere near as consistent. It also doesn't manage to cheat anything into play or give additional combat, turns, etc. His reliance on the graveyard and ability to be delved doesnt change this.

I’m not necesarily saying to downgrade najeela. I just think tasigur can compete with tier 1 better than tier two commanders.

ToshiroU. I absolutely agree, and fully believe—and for a ling while now—that Azami is a competitive deck as opposed to high power. I play with mine against fully tuned decks regularly, and have had a very good success rate. My meta consists of chain veil Teferi, gitrog, Demon Tyrant, Najeela, Edric, T&T Razakats, and sometimes Oona. Again, all fully tuned to their maximum strength. No complaints here. I've played using other mono blue decks, mostly online, and I believe Azami has earned a spot with the best of the mono U commanders, under of course Urza for obvious reasons.

As for the current changes to the list, I believe T&T has earned their placement, for the time being at least. Only time will tell if that sticks or not, but it seems clear that Wizards is on role with creating broken legends, and I believe that role isn't over, especially with the release of the newest set. For a long time it was Zur that was considered in a class of his own, and we've seen now, for the first time in a while, his placement being challenged, not only by the likes of T&T, but even by Kess in a lot of ways. Curious to see how the list changes.

I think they should ban Tymna but not thrasios

Sorry to double comment but I dont see any Aurelia, the Warleader on this list and Aurelia could be a bad tier 2 or GREAT tier 3

@Fellin22

There is no list and you want her moved to a higher tier. Double the reason you are encouraged to post a list yourself