All good. I didn't mean to come across as antagonistic or anything. Just trying to clear things up. I may have gotten a little disgruntled because the argument "Commander A is slightly stronger, and runs about the same strategy as Commander B, so B is trash" has come up quite a bit. Pity there's no easy way to set a short reminder that both gets the point across and doesn't sound silly.

A friend linked me a fairly optimized Sidisi Brood deck about a month ago. It's not perfected, but if you're wondering how Sidisi more or less performs, it's an alright place to start. link

Did tappedout get hacked by some trickster programmer? All the card tags have been bonkers

Leinahtan The best mono-green stax commander is Titania, so you in a roundabout way answered your own query. And she doesn't only benefit from lands that sac themselves, but cards like Sylvan Safekeeper, Natural Balance, and Harrow that are already fine on their own but play up in a Titania shell. I have no idea whether she's actually tier 2 if built properly or not (I run her, but an intentionally suboptimal build to fit my playgroup and I don't play the Stax stuff) but there's definitely more to her than getting a 5/3 just for cracking fetchlands.

As for Reaper King and Sliver Queen, they are where they are because they are often used as generals for Hermit Druid combo and as such are worse than Scion but still fine. The differences are playing a couple cards that synergize with them (Mana Echoes for Queen, Conspiracy for King) instead of the backup win-con dragon package that Scion lists play.

Good morning everyone! So I read through the last 30 comments and if everyone is ok with this, here are the changes I would do:

• Ruhan of the Fomori tier 5 -> tier 4

• Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer tier 5 -> tier 3

• Bruna, Light of Alabaster and Uril The Mist Stalker tier 2 -> tier 3. I know they are strong, but since they are voltron generals and they basically rely on combat samage to kill, they are not the best competitive choices. Even if there is a lot of protection available, a table of 4 will have enough ways to get around.

• Ezuri, Claw of Progress tier 2 -> tier 3

• Memnarch tier 2 -> tier 3. Way too slow for tier 2 in my opinion.

• Reaper King tier 2 -> tier 3. I know, he is a 5c general, and his ability is good, but I have yet to see an optimized list... The strongest I have seen was a changeling deck, and it is quite easy to get rid of the king, and the rest of the deck is meh. Not the best 5c in my opinion, he should go down.

• Ezuri, Renegade Leader could be our next du=iscussion subject. He is good enough in multiplayer to stay tier 2? There are other better mono-green elfball commanders, and he requires us to go all in, so we would need to kill all the others at the same time... Should he go down to 3???

NarejED Sleazebag Ohthenoises sonnet666 what do you think?

I'd say Ezuri Renegade is the next strongest mono green commander after Yisan. I would for sure drop Omnath and Titania first.

i think that both ezuri's should stay tier 2.

If your demoting Ezuri, Claw of Progress, then it would be somewhat ridiculous to keep Ezuri, Renegade Leader in tier 2.

I don't know about the rest of you but with everyone spamming change suggestions and suggestion refutations I think we need a more organized and simple system to make it easier to know what the majority of this community wants changed. After all, isn't this supposed to be a democratic list? I recently suggested a voting system which only 1 person responded to that I feel can solve what I think is a problem with this list.

I'd leave Uril in T2. I've been on the fence about Bruna, but having piloted her, a version that's naturally difficult to interact with seems fantastic.

Ezuri, Claw of Progress also seems like he should stay in T2, he has an infinite turns combo that's tutor-able, and an infect backup strategy that is surprisingly fast.

Everyone always gets hung up on the tribal aspect of Reaper King. I don't think that's the best way to play him anyway. Just drop him and follow him up with a Rite of Replication or Blade of Selves, you'll blow up half the board. I haven't seen an optimized list either, but I think one that favored that as plan A would probably be T2 worthy.

On the topic of Reaper King. You don't build your deck even remotely around him.

You build a generic competetive combo deck that also happens to run Rite of Replication or Conspiracy for an alternate win.

As for the Ezuri's, I think they both deserve T2, but I don't know much about these decks.

About the new card:

This is easily Tier 2, right? If not Tier 1. It's like the dream stax commander. And it's a frog.

I'm not sure.

He's fantastic with Crucible of Worlds and fetchlands, but without crucible are you really going to have enough lands in hand to keep him from cutting into your mana base or killing himself? You could up the land count, but then you're buying a card advantage engine by decreasing the benefit you get from that card advantage engine, which isn't a great play.

He could be T2, but I'm going to reserve judgement until someone comes out with a working decklist.

Oh, and for the new commanders my estimation is as such:

Archangel Avacyn --> T4. I've been building with her, and I'd like to rank her higher because she's the first R/W commander that effectively enables a R/W control strategy (and is really cool while doing it), but in the end she's still in the weakest color identity there is and doesn't generate card advantage to mitigate that.

Odric, Lunarch Marshal --> T4. He's pretty cool (Concerted Effort on legs is nice), but he's still mono-white and doesn't actually provide an advance to aggro strategy the way Jazal Goldmane does.

Olivia, Mobilized for War --> T3. She's in a weak color identity, but even ignoring the fact that she makes tribal vampire effects playable, she works as great R/B reanimator general, which is a powerful enough strategy on it's own that any commander that contributes to it in a meaningful way is going to make it to T3. Plus the haste effect comes down early enough to actually matter.

Sigarda, Heron's Grace --> T3. Good color identity, token strategy, hexproof, critical mass of commander playable humans, ways to make her a human; all around this comes out to a pretty good deck. I'm not seeing anything outright special about it, but it's good enough overall to be in T3 I think.

I'm seeing Tier 3 at best for Gitrog. Unless someone finds a way to break it with an efficient 1-2 card combo, its doomed to mediocrity.

I mean, it feels like a fantastic stax commander. Generating advantage just by playing Magic, and the extra land is a nice bonus. Not to mention the shenanigans he can pull off with dredge.

The best stax commanders are ones that benefit you, allowing you to break symmetry on stax effects. Like how Brago resets mana rocks to get around Static Orb, or Selvala taps for lots of mana.

The idea is that your commander is mitigating the symmetrical effect so well that it doesn't bother you as much as it bothers your opponents.

With Gitrog he's adding a tax on (just) your resources, and the only mitigating factor is the extra land ability, which has to be built around.

He could wind up being really great, but making him consistent is going to be very, very tricky.

I am currently working on a Gritog list since I saw him, and I think it will be possible to break him with dredge and discard engines, like lothlet troll, to dredge and discard. It is gonna be my next deck (all hail the great frog lord), so I will try to break it as much as I can, and goung to write a primer. He does seems tier 2 to me though.

You simply don't put a card on the tier list until you have seen results. Putting a card up the second you see him is unreasonable.

No no no, I am not trying to put it in the list right now, I will wait to see him before

Ironically the "best" way to break The Gitgud Monster is outside his color identity since Seismic Assault goes infinite if the deck is built properly.

I can also see him adding value to existing dredge decks but as a commander I just don't think he does anything that Savra or Meren doesn't do for G/B

I would like to petition to move my Ghost Council up from tier 5

But the Frog could be a dedicated dredge deck, all the dredge cards are in thise colors... There must be a combo available to abuse dredging and lots of cards in graveyard like this... I will try to do my best so we can judge him properly after.

As far as the Mono green discussion on who makes the better elfball:

I'm having a hard time keeping personal bias out of it but here's my 2c.

Ezuri, while being a strong commander is more suited to a 1v1 environment. He is far easier to predict and far easier to kill, while he protects the other elves he does precious little to save himself. His playstyle is usually FAR more aggressive, encouraging you to tap out on your turn to Overrun, if this CAN'T win the game then that's pretty much it.

Omnath, on the other hand, can play a more reactive game because, thanks to the floating mana, you are never truly tapped out. This means that it's far easier to hold up Krosan Grip or Beast Within and still have a gigantic monster.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, mana doesn't change while it's in limbo. This means that Cavern of Souls naming elf can just float a ton of mana as the game goes on and this mana will still make them uncounterable.

Another benefit is that he is easily capable of putting people in a quandary when it comes to boardwipes. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa basically reads "boardwipe, I dare you, all of your lands go too." since you have all of that floating mana.

Lastly, as to the argument of "oh but I kill omnath and the mana goes away". There are four things outside of the normal protection that can help keep your mana, Aluren (amazing with elfball decks as long as you can ensure that your opponents won't get the same value since you can dump your hand at an opponent's EoT), Yeva, Nature's Herald, Nim Deathmantle (part of the Avenger of Zendikar combo with Ashnod's Altar), and good ol Vedalken Orrery.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not campaigning for Ezuri RL to be demoted but simply listing my reasons why I feel omnath outclasses him.

Ezuri should retain his T2 seat due to his popularity in duel commander, he IS quite strong, if one track.

So I've been trying to keep up with comments and if I missed the reasoning I apologize, but why is Jeleva tier one?

She is a strong commander but tier one strong? I know the strategy is a grixis storm deck, but how does that land her in tier one? If you cast her and she hits Ad Nauseam and is killed before she can cast it, the spell is exiled. Her colors lack the ability to deal with enchantments permanently. My friend runs her and his list does not revolve around a storm combo (he goes for Enter the Infinite to end the game) and it is one of the stronger decks in our meta, but my Omnath, Locus of Rage deck is able to compete against it. I am in no way advocating either decks but if my tier three general can keep the deck from winning I do not see how she holds tier one power. Also if you are running grixis Storm doesn't that defeat the whole advantage of Jeleva? She wants to play big spells free.

I know someone posted a decklist but I cannot find it.

Also I disagree with Uril, the Miststalker being potentially moved down. While the color combination may be considered weak, it still allows access to tutors necessary for the strategy. I'll look for the decklist I saw but one user (I think his name is just uril) made a pretty sound list. He has two. One that focuses on a Karmic Guide combo and one that focus more on uril. Both deck lists seem strong. The one that focuses on th combo, if it fails, still has a great back up plan.

Now I haven't seen any lists but this is more a theory, but I feel Nayal can be good for control with cards like Blood Moon (which is a damn good card) and uril as a win condition is not a bad route. Again, this is just a theory. I haven't really looked into a possible deck. But regardless Uril is a strong commander.

In terms of the SoI commanders, I'm going to hold judgement until the set comes out.

For the Ghost Counsil, I feel tier five is fair. He offers a sac outlet but I feel as though that's it. That life gain life loss he adds isn't the best for commander. I feel he fits the tier 5 description.

In terms of Jeleva, I'm not saying move her down, I simply am asking for more clarification as to her tier one power.

Also the tier description still has 6 tiers.

Unless I keep missing it, there is no tier six anymore right?

I wrote the last tier descriptions, so I guess I'll rewrite them. Give me a little bit.