@trinitok: I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't feel Aavacyn is worthy of Tier 3 when we have commanders like Krenko, Mob Boss in it. She has some great synergy with nearly every form of board wipe from Wrath of God to Worldslayer, but she's just too slow.

Unfortunately, I've been headed off each time I bring it up by Avacyn players, so she's managed to remain in Tier 3 all this time.

I feel she is tier 4 as well, but I think she is being held up by stacky type wrath decks. Armageddon type shenanigans maybe.

If we are basing it off of what the deck runs as opposed to how the commander really synergizes with the deck, I would like to advocate my girls, the Sen Triplets, as tier 2 then because of my deck, Sen Stooges. I can consistently win on turn 4-6 in over 60% of my games :P

That being said, I feel that if you run them and run them often that you do have some bias towards them. I personally feel that my girls are worthy of tier 2, but that is because I am SUPER biased towards them and love taking control and shutting down my opponents with their ability. As their flavor text says, "They are the masters of your mind"!

NarejED: I agree with you, but because Wordslayer is an artifact, I can run it in any deck and since it relies on dealing damage to a player, then all I gotta do is chump block. Avacyn, Angel of Hope doesn't have any way of becoming unblockable so all I literally gotta do is just make Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon chump block and regenerate until Avacyn dies. I do not mean to insult you, and I apologize if I am coming off as such. My point is that her color just does not help much with Worldslayer. Additionally, Avacyn, Angel of Hope is already cmc 8. Worldslayer cast and equip is cmc 10 making a total of cmc 18. So you would need considerable ramp before pulling any shenanigans. I do agree with you though about Avacyn currently being in with Krenko, Mob Boss. It just doesn't make sense. But if you also look at the tier 4 generals, you can see that there is a clear difference between a lot of the tier 4 and tier 3 generals. If Avacyn, Angel of Hope is moved down, she would be one of, if not the most, powerful of the tier 4 commanders because of her potential.

Didgeridooda: first off, love your username. Made me chuckle. Yes, you can run her in some stax deck, but they are not as good as they could be. Not sure if really tier 3 worthy. If you could use her to make tokens instead of giving indestructible and then run something with stax, I could definitely see that working. If you have an example of a deck, I would love to see it. Furthermore, while blowing stuff up with Armageddon is funny, most competitive decks, my Sen Stooges, for example, won't care. I will have to much ramp through artifacts or my average cmc will be low enough in a competitive setting that blowing up my lands will not really make me fret that much. Will it set me behind? Absolutely. Will this mean GG for me though? Maybe, not guaranteed. Again, if you have an example, I would love to see it. I apologize if I have insulted you with my response. Just merely want to try and help show that I do not believe Avacyn, Angel of Hope is worthy of tier 3.

Avacyn, Angel of Hope does have an easy way to abuse worldslayer. Its called Stonehewer Giant. Either way, she is a perfect example of a borderline general. Weaker than most the other tier 3 generals and stronger than most the tier 4 generals.

Sen Triplets got a nice boost with the rule 4 change and esper is a stong color scheme for competitive play. I could see them maybe being tier 2.

I tend to stay away from judging Esper control decks because I run one as my main. We say not to advocate for your own decks/commanders because everyone is going to be bias in favor of them. With that said, I do not disagree with you. Triplets are very good.

As far as Avacyn, I just think the being mono white thing is too big of a hurdle to overcome.

When are we going to update tier 2? There are a whole lot of commanders there that are on vastly different levels. Now that we only have 5 tiers, we could make a new tier 3 and drop tiers 4 and 5 down to 5 and 6. Both Ezuri's, Kaalia, Daretti, Marath, Memnarch, Roon, and Uril are commanders that seem fairly goodstuff-y or are too slow/inconsistent. I'll do a short explanation for each.

Ezuri Renegade: Slower and easier to disrupt than Yisan. If you really want Ezuri, you can get him with Yisan on verse 3. One wrath sets Ezuri very far back, and he has a hard time recovering with no cards in hand, where Yisan can start digging again for more creatures.

Ezuri Claw: Requires a bit of setup, 3 small creatures after you cast Ezuri, for the Sage of Hours combo. Can be easily disrupted with stuff like Deluge on 2 or removal on the Sage. It's decently consistent, with the tutors in blue and green, but overall it wins around turn 5-6.

Kaalia: It can crush casual decks, which gives it its bad reputation, but it really isn't that good. Its more of a midrange deck, which needs to find a stax piece to compete. (This is similar to most midrange decks, even my beloved Yisan, which dies to decks like Storm without a Trinisphere or similar card.) The deck isn't that consistent, and it's just not a great deck overall.

Daretti: Too inconsistent. Got hit super hard due to the mull change, and turn 4 Daretti isn't that impressive when it just gets killed immediately.

Marath: Aggro commander that has a decent combo, but isn't that consistent. Again, the 120 damage problem.

Memnarch: It's a terrible commander in general. Control needs a draw engine, like Azami or Damia, but Memnarch doesn't have that. When you cast your 7 mana commander, it doesn't really do much. It can maybe steal a Sol Ring, but overall he doesn't bring much to the table.

Roon: Seems like a worse Brago, but I haven't seen a good Roon deck yet.

Uril: Aggro doesn't do too well when you have to deal with 3 opponents. It's slow, but at least it survives edicts decently.

trinitok: Your list is decent, but there are a few problems that I'm going to address here. Thopter Sword isn't infinite without KCI or Time Sieve. You're running way too many different combos, and I can see the deck getting stuck with pieces for a few different combos. You don't have enough tutors, only running 3 that I saw. Some suggested tutors: Trinket Mage, Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Intuition, Lim-Dul's Vault (budget option), Transmute Artifact, Reshape. I'd cut Tamiyo's Journal, and maybe the Energy Field combo. I think that with a little tuning, the deck can be lower tier 2 or upper tier 3. Sorry if I came out a bit harshly.

Thanks for reading as always.

Ok Guyz!!! I am enclined to do some changes, I would just want to be able to come up with something that everyone will agree...

For now, here is what the changes that I feel have been "approved":

• Ruhan of the Fomori tier 5 -> tier 4

• Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer tier 5 -> tier 3

Please help me expand the list!!!

@thegigibeast I feel that slobad should be tier 4 not 3. he's good, but the fact is that Daretti, Scrap Savant is pretty much always better, so slobad will usually be in the 99.

as for ruhan, tier 4 seems accurate, he CAn be tier 3 if done right, but its hard to do so tier 4 fits him.

and can you put in The Gitrog Monster already?

I agree with Leinahtan when it comes to both Ezuris. Ezuri, Renegade Leader is to easily taken out by a boardwipe. Additionally, it is mono green so while it can easily swarm with elves, any kind of pro-green or something that can target and destroy green creatures by the dozen or stop the player from using green (Iona, Shield of Emeria) will shut the deck down instantly. Ezuri, Claw of Progress requires that you get to a point where you can cast ezuri, and then cast a few more creatures if you want to win. Is there another fast combo for Ezuri, Claw of Progress that doesn't involve Sage of Hours?

I also agree with Memnarch. He is a mono blue commander that is better as one of the cards in the deck than as a commander. You need to cast him for 7, turn their permanent into an artifact (assuming it isn't an artifact already), and then steal it. The whole process take 14 mana initially and 7 mana per permanent to continuously do. It can shut some strategies down if everyone else has been slowed down by other players, but it is still a bit slow.

That being said, I definitely agree moving both Ezuris to tier 3 instead of 2. As to Memnarch, I will let majority vote decide I guess.

Leinahtan, how exactly is winning around turn 5-6 not good enough for tier two, where Ezuri, Claw of Progess is concerned?

And how exactly does the fact that Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer is worse than Daretti, Scrap Savant make him tier four instead of tier three? I suppose I could see that if Daretti were tier three instead of tier two, but I've been opposed to that suggested change from the beginning.

In summation, I'm having a difficult time following some of the underlying logic of these suggestions, here.

I think that Slobad should be tier 3. Check out Gerst's eggs list which was around tier 2 pre-mull, but is more tier 3ish now. Also, the turn 5-6 wins aren't very consistent. I can see turn 1 land, turn 2 dork, turn 3 Ezuri, then turn 4 cast 2 dorks, and turn 5 cast more dorks and Sage, but that's a shaky scenario without any tutors whatsoever. To me, the deck seems fragile, but I'll do some more testing. Does anyone have a semi-optimized list?

Forgot to say Gitrog should be at least tier 2.

I am going to point out a line of text from Ezuri, Renegade Leader.

G: regenerate target elf.

I know it doesn't stop WoG or Damnation but I feel to say that it gets shut down by a sweeper is a little incorrect. I personally feel that it's better than Yisan, who needs to live a turn before using the ability, and has to tap to activate.

Memnarch should have been moved down a long time ago. He was never amazing before the rule change. After the rules change, he became way too slow. As for the major tier 2 update, let's aim for the Saturday after the prelease. That lets us add in the new commanders they day they officially become legal. Two birds with one stone.

As I requested earlier, if possible, please prioritize discussion of the commanders currently in Tier 2. A wide range of input is preferred.

Dredge4life It's actually ": regenerate another target elf." Meaning that you must keep up mana and he can't save himself, meaning that if you were to regenerate your team, losing Ezuri, then the next player in turn order wipes again you've lost.

Sorry. knew I was missing a word there. Still though, If two people wrath one after the other, I feel like that would set back the majority of tier two generals as much as Ezuri. It stops Yisan fairly well, but really I feel like that's a little unreasonable to say that a creature dies to removal. Not trying to be argumentative but I feel like it's a little unfair to say a commander dies to removal.

There are actually very few good board wipes for competitive EDH that don't take out Ezuri's elves. Moreover, many also allow the player to break symmetry without much to any setup. Decree of Pain's (cycle ability), Toxic Deluge, Living Death, Massacre Wurm, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite are all prime examples. The only good board wipe I can think of that he is useful for is Supreme Verdict. The regenerate ability is ok for some forms of spot removal but thats about it.

What sweepers are commonly played in cEDH? This list is probably incomplete, as I based off of personal experience. What I've seen is that the best sweepers are Rift Deluge, followed by WoG and Damnation, and then maybe Merciless Eviction, Supreme Verdict, Black Sun's Zenith, Austere Command, Terminus, and Hallowed Burial. Out of that list of 11 sweepers, how many does Ezuri stop? 2. If he manages to have open mana to keep his boardstate, that saves him from <20% of the sweepers. To add to this, Yisan has many better anti-wrath cards. Unlike Ezuri, he can reliably tutor up said anti-wrath cards like Sabertooth (with enough mana, saves most of your creatures from 100% of said wrath cards), Soul of NPH (with 5 mana, saves you from double the wrath cards Ezuri can save), Whisperwood Elemental (your creatures die, but you manifest a bunch, setting up a great boardstate), and due to the land destruction (ha) cards that Yisan plays, it can sometimes blow up the control player's lands before he can cast the wrath. Ezuri isn't better than Yisan by a long shot. Consistency, speed, resiliency, and flexibility make Yisan head and shoulders better than Ezuri.

I'm probably biased because Yisan is my commander, but I'd say most of the community agrees with me.

I feel like the current tier 3 is not in a good place right now.  It's currently a mix of what I would still consider competitive and casual generals.  I think that tier 3 should retain competitive generals only.  Many of my commanders are within the current tier 3 so it might be best for me to remain neutral on deciding these cards fate, but I feel like the largest disparity in power from tier to tier is within this tier 3 zone.  There are commanders that I feel have a strong 80-90% win percentage against some of these other tier 3 commanders.  Which I feel makes it a too all inclusive tier.So, I suggest tier 3(lowest competitive tier) and tier 4(Very strong Casual).

@Leinahtan I would tend to agree with you on your assessment of Ezuri/Yisan. Consistency, speed, resiliency, and flexibility being the reason Yisan is the Commander you will see in competitive circuits for Elfball commander instead of Ezuri. I would say Yisan is Competitive and Ezuri is a Strong Casual.

May I suggest,Tier #1- Top(competitive)Tier #2- Circuit(competitive)Tier #3- Strong(competitive)Tier #4- Good(casual/friendly)Tier #5- Average(casual/friendly)Tier #6- Weak(very casual/friendly)

I agree with Prime_Time and his assessment of tier 3. However, I thought thegigibeast was trying to move away from six tiers. Feel free to point out if I am wrong, but I thought in some of the comments all the way at the top that were made after the initial comments reset I believe thegigibeast does say that he wants to get rid of six tiers.

There's no sense going back to a six-tier system after we finally got out of it. It's an entirely needless complication.

Tier #2-Jace vryn's prodigy Tier #3-Atarka world render, aurelia the warleader, ayli eternal pilgrim, Daxos of Meletis, Daxos the Returned, Doran the siege tower, Eight-and-a-half-tails, Eladamri lord of leaves, Elesh Norn grand Cenobite, Feldon of the Third Path, Freyalise llanawars fury, General Tazri, geth lord of the vault, Gisela blade of goldnight, glissa the traitor, Grimgrin corpse-born, Hanna ships navigator, Hazezon Tamar, Heartless hidetsugu, Horde of Notions, jalira master polymorphist, Jazal Goldmane, kamahl fist of krosa, Karametra god of harvests, Karlov of the ghost concuil, Karn Silver golem, Kemba kha regent, Kiki jiki mirror breaker, Kokusho the evening star, Kozilek butcher of truth, Krenko Mob boss, linvala keeper of silence, Mikaeus the unhallowed, Mishra artificer prodigy, Muzzio visionary architect, nath of the gilt-leaf, Nekusar the mindrazor, Noyan dar roil shaper, Numot the devastator, Omnath locus of rage, Phenax god of deception, Progenitus, rafiq of the many, rhys the redeemed, savra queen of the golgari, sen triplets, seton krosans protector, sheolred the whispering one, shirei shizos caretaker, shu yun the silent tempest, sigarda the host of herons, skithiryx the blight dragon, Sliver hivelord, sliver overlord, surrak dragonclaw, talrand sky summoner, thrun the last troll, volrath the fallen, Xenagos god of revels, Xiahou dun the one-eyed, Yosei the morning star Tier #4-Adun Oakenshield, Anafenza the foremost, avasyn angel of hope, Chainer, dementia master, Crosis the Purger, Dragonlord Ojutai, Dromar the banisher, ertai the corrupted, Experiment Kraj, Hokori Dustdrinker, Kira great glass spinner, Kruphix god of horizons, Kurkesh onakke ancient, lun zu scolar general, Mezirek kraul death priest, Medomai the ageless, Merieke Ri Berit, Multani Marro-sorcerer, Nichol bolas, ojutai soul of winter, Rakdos lord of riots, Rasputin dreamweaver, Ruin tail kitsune ascendant, ruric thar the unbowed, sakashima the imposter, silumgar the drifting death, teferi mage zalfir, thada adel acquisitor, thasa god of the sea, venser the shaper savant, vish kal blood arbiter, vorel the hull clade, wort the raidmother, Zedruu the greathearted, Zirilan of the claw, Zurgo helmsmasher

the old six tiers had a tier 6 useless cards, I suggest adding a 3rd competitive tier, a new tier 3.