NarejED, that build is pretty much what mine looks like, but I think they are making it overly complicated. Once you get a dredge loop going, you can just keep looping until you can draw your whole deck, discard Koz until you clear the extra triggers, and combo out from there.

They also have a bit more control cards than I think is necessary, some of their discard outlets are sub-par, and they're missing some of the best tutors. They also need to include both Ulamog AND Kozilek, because right now the combo will suicide you if someone instant-speed exiles your yard in response to Koz's trigger.

thegigibeast, Ohthenoises, Despite what I talked about earlier, it turns out trying to combo with Necrotic Ooze is actually detrimental to the deck as a whole. It requires to many card slots, and when you're using the Kozilek dredge loop, there's no point anyway since all the cards are winding up in your hand.

DERPLINGSUPREME, actually, any dredger will work. With 40% land, you're almost guaranteed to hit at least one whenever you dredge, and if you don't you can always discard an extra land to try again. Even if you start with Life from the Loam, you're pretty much always going to dredge into your better cards.

Skulloelegy, I don't think the spellshapers are really going to work out here. Yeah, they let you discard, but not as freely as a standard outlet, and unfortunately none of their effects are really good enough to run. I liked Silverglade Pathfinder, but the ramp turned out to just be too slow for a dedicated combo build.

I think the idea with Ooze isn't to focus on it. You are going to have space to fill when it comes to the deck. After you get all your tutors, discard outlets, and dredge targets, you should have at least 5-6 slots left. I think that's what the Ooze is good for personally. Another set of combos that you can weave into the deck to help out if your original plan gets borked.

A few things from my Gitrog brewing.

• If you're doing Ooze shenanigans, especially with abilities that target (Invoker), it's helpful to run a way to deal with problematic permanents so you can combo off. Grim Poppet and Wickerbough Elder with Devoted Druid can Plague Wind opponents, but more importantly can kill stuff like Aegis of the Gods and new Sigarda that prevent you from killing someone.

• Gaea's Blessing feels better than Kozilek, since it has utiliy elsewhere and Kozilek is pretty unrealistic to cast. Outside of competitive tables, people do play Bribery.

• If you're on the infinite mana and dredge plan, Morgue Theft is a way to get Ooze into your hand from your yard if you can't reliably flash back Dread Return.

• Krosan Reclamation is a way to save combo pieces from instant-speed graveyard interaction. Maybe not good enough, but worth keeping in mind.

• Other good value plays are Edge of Autumn, Burgeoning, Worm Harvest, and Centaur Vinecrasher.

• Mentioned on the previous thread, but a cute combo you can run with infinite mana is Ever After+Sidisi, Undead Vizier. You can reanimate your deck and kill with Concordant Crossroads.

yavimaya_eldred I'm gonna steal a lot of this for my sidisi deck lol. (it's essentially how you guys are building gitrog with added for Ezuri, Claw of Progress and other fun shenanigans.)

Appreciate it :)

sonnet666

I know what you mean -- Maybe it a super budget build they might be useful, but otherwise they're not really efficient. I do love using Ridged Kusite to give Gitrog first strike though to make it combat invincible.

@sonnet666 no. You still need that initial draw trigger, so simply discarding a Golgari Grave-Troll will not trigger it, so you won't be able to dredge him right away.

if you have land in hand or a fetch on the field though, then yeah, it'll work.

Jenara, Asura of War should be tier three at least maybe tier two. she is one of the most played aggro commanders and is definitely tier three worthy.

MasterXandar Sorry, but no. She's only played extensively in French, and in multiplayer, she is pretty awful. Winning through combat damage isn't really the greatest, unless you can abuse combat damage like Edric decks. Jenara is just a poor voltron commander who folds to any combo or stax deck.

@Leinahtan I've seen her played in multiplayer. She should be in tier 3. when I see her used, she isn't played as a voltron commander, she's played as midrange, even maybe ramp. afterall, using you excess mana each turn to pump her up is pretty good over the course of a long multiplayer game.

Jenara suffers from what I call the snowball effect.

You can see it coming, you can see it building up, and you can just plan to stop it before it kills you. Sometimes people's boardstates do this and those commanders suffer for it. Ezuri x2 and Rhys decks also fall into this category. The only reason that those decks rank higher is because they have the elf synergy which can make them faster. (Prossh can even be guilty of this at times but most times he's just too fast to stop it.)

Jenara just doesn't have that explosive power.

I have a Jenara deck. I have also played against her too. The biggest issue with her is what Ohthenoises has identified. You can see her strategy coming from a mile away. Her colors aren't awful and do lend a hand to beefing her up, but to really utilize her you will be going for commander damage. There are other better strategies that do better. Her color combo isn't horrible, but you are more likely to win through some combo in the deck than anything. She can be chump blocked, removed, or have her counters removed.

She is a lot of fun to play around though. I will say that much.

I'm curious if anyone can give me an explanation of why Omnath, Locus of Mana is rated higher than Kruphix, God of Horizons...

Omnath: Pro- 3 CMC, gets big fast, can swing for large amounts of general damage on turn 3/4. Con- easy to remove, doesn't inherently have trample so he can be blocked by a 0/1 plant and no harm done.

Kruphix: Pro- quite difficult to remove, can facilitate getting massive beaters out very quickly, access to blue. Con- General Damage is less of a option, 5 CMC vs 3 CMC.

Kruphix seems slightly less aggro but not by much and the access to blue seems to more than make up for it.. Just curious

Omnath is better for what he does than Kruphix. The fact that he can get in himself for a significant amount on turn 3 is much better than Kruphix, who needs time to generate advantage. The only clear-cut way Kruphix is better is access to U. Speaking as a really adamant Kruphix player, Omnath just gets the job done faster. Kruphix also costs 5 versus Omnath's 3. Although, neither are very good for t1 games.

Based on the feedback received in the past few weeks, here are the changes to be made to Tier 2:

Arcanis the Omnipotent --> Tier 3. Consensus: Strictly worse than Azami by a large margin. Azami is already at the bottom of Tier 1 / top of Tier 2.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking --> Tier 3.

Bruna, Light of Alabaster --> Tier 3. Consensus: Voltron isn't strong in multiplayer EDH.

Ezuri, Renegade Leader --> Tier 3. Consensus: Strictly inferior to Yisan for mono-green elf ball. Loses to creature wipes. Very little ability to interact with opponents other than trying to reduce their life totals.

Omnath, Locus of Mana --> Tier 3. Consensus: Voltron isn't good in multiplayer EDH, and Omnath's other abilities don't justify his current placement at all.

Reaper King --> Tier 3. Doesn't bring anything useful to the table for 5C combo builds, and scarecrow tribal is a low Tier 3 deck by itself.

Teysa, Orzhov Scion --> Tier 3. She requires too many combo pieces to be terribly effective, and her color identity is too weak to support alternate strategies.

Uril, the Miststalker --> Tier 3. Again, voltron is just too weak in multiplayer EDH to be considered competitive. While he's stronger than Bruna, he's still too slow. By the time he manages to kill 1 opponent, one of the others has probably already won or locked down the board.

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip --> Tier 2. His High Tide combo-control deck has proven to be a force to be reckoned with in the new Vancouver EDH meta.

Big thanks to everyone who participated in the voting and discussion process.

In multiplayer, Kruphix is certainly better. Omnath lacks trample, can be easily removed, relies on you storing mana to make him big rather than just giving you a means to store mana(and is bad value if you don't have spare mana), and he's mono-green. In multiplayer, his low mana cost is basically irrelevant.

Kruphix is indestructible, starts off big, doesn't rely on you storing mana to be big, has another useful ability, and he gives you access to blue, which is very useful for a bit of control and better card draw; and some more big creatures to cast with all the manaramp.

I was one of the proponents of moving omnath down, but I truly feel that those of you calling him a "voltron general" are really missing the point. Yes he can kill with commander damage but his best attributes are as an amazing draw engine (ex. Greater Good) and to ensure you never waste any mana and there are alot of ways to protect that mana in mono green. He can allow you to hard cast Tooth and Nail on turn 5 with no mana acceleration whatsoever... Kruphix is not any better than Omnath even with access to blue.

Classifying Omnath as a Voltron general or Reaper King as meaningless in 5-color combo is extremely disingenuous. I must have missed the Azusa discussion, I wouldn't have moved her down.

I am also curious as to why Azusa is being moved down. She is definitely the most consistently fast ramping mono green general and since she primarily relies upon land based ramp instead of mana dorks she is less susceptible to losing everything if she encounters a board wipe. I didn't read a single compelling argument against her and I have been following the discussion for a while. The only arguments I have read about her are written in a biased manner that characterizes all green builds as simplistic as:

1) Ramp

2) Dump fatties

3) Swing and hope for lethal by turn 4 or 5.

4) Fold the second someone plays a board wipe

The arguments I have read seem to assume that mono green doesn't possess good card draw or any way to recover. Both of these implied assumptions are false.

One weakness I personally see for Azusa is that she can run out of steam rather quickly since she doesn't facilitate (Omnath) or provide herself (Yisan) any consistent card advantage. This is a legitimate problem since most of green's good card draw can not be tutored for except for Regal Force and to a lesser extent the two Kozileks.

Either way, the mono green general hierachy for multiplayer probably shakes out like this:

1) Yisan, the Wanderer Bard: Mid tier 2.

2) Azusa, Lost but Seeking: weak tier 2

3) Omnath, Locus of Mana / Titania, Protector of Argoth: Strong Tier 3

5) Ezuri, Renegade Leader / Seton, Krosan Protector: Mid Tier 3.

I also don't agree with Omnath being moved. As others has said, he's not a voltron general.

Along with what others had mentioned he lends himself to green combo well as none of your mana is wasted turn to turn. T3-4 tooth and nail is EASILY possible and that's not to mention the Genesis Wave options he has available.

The argument that you lose your mana if he's killed is also a bit null. I posted on it before the comment sweep but Aluren, Nim Deathmantle, and Yeva, Nature's Herald are just of a few of the cards that can let you keep your mana. (those are only the options that are for recasting him if he dies, there are plenty of way to keep him from dying in the first place.)

A properly built Omnath deck will ramp, get a kill with Omnath himself if a window presents itself and then second main use all of the mana for something like Genesis Wave or Greater Good/Garruk, Primal Hunter/Soul's Majesty post combat to refill the hand.

Lastly, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa in an Omnath deck is basically game over. The first wipe played turns into a one sided Armageddon.

TL;DR Omnath isn't as squishy as it seems like most of you would believe, nor is he a voltron commander.

It seems that in Omnath's case people are getting extremely hung up on a specific word choice, rather than actually addressing the issue at hand.

Ohthenoises, yavimaya_eldred: What is your reasoning for Omnath remaining in Tier 2? What makes him worthy of such a position? Which general guideline(s) of Tier 2 does he meet? Note that "He's not a Voltron general" is not a valid argument for Tier 2 status by itself.

"Casual"
"Win by turn 6"

....okay

Yep, I would like to hear your complete arguments too... For now he will stay tier three until we get valid arguments.

I could start (being an ex omnath player I know a little bit what I talk about).

Yes he seems strong, yes he is one of the best mono-green commanders, but I do not think he is as good as the others commanders in tier 2. First of all, mono-green, by itself, is not the best color for a competitive deck, lacking removal and many other things. Secondly, I must say that in fact, he has a voltron strategy. I mean, yes there are other things you can do with all the mana... But he still likes to swing. I know there is also a lot of protection available, but we are talking competitive multiplayer here, so for sure someone will have a way around all your protection, be it the blue player that will not even let you cast your Omnath... And spot removal will rain upon Omnath's head... Even with a lot of protection, ehrn three players turn their attention to a single commander, the game starts to be way harder... Maybe I am wrong about this, because Omnath was the first commander ever I built all alone, but that is what I remember from it and that is why I think he should be tier three...

But please point it out if I am wrong!!!

Just a nitpick but "He's a Voltron general" isn't necessarily a valid reason to demote a commander if that's the only reason you're giving, that being said we can focus on "Omnath's other abilities don't justify his current placement at all." From here on. Anything in quotes is paraphrasing from the criteria description from above.

As I stated in my comment, T3-4 Tooth and Nail is EASILY possible This in itself can "set up an unbeatable boardstate by turn 5". Which is the criteria for a T2 general. Granted we are asking that it actually RESOLVE but there are way of ensuring that with . Regardless, having the ability to save mana doesn't seem all that potent but having access to 7+ mana on T 3-4 "if left unchecked" will win the game. Keeping in mind also that Omnath can be built "in a variety of ways" including elfball, value, and more aggressive aggro.

According to the ranking this exactly fits the description given for T2.

Add to that, the flexibility in his style of play where you can draw your entire library and then use the floating mana to cast whatever you need to win and I really think that you may be undervaluing his ability.

thegigibeast The description covers "left unchecked". If that holds true he qualifies for every part of the description on T2.

Now if you are talking disrupted? fine, that's a different matter, and we should demote anything non Blue lol. All kidding aside, I feel like he qualifies for everything stated in the description of T2.

(Hello fellow ex omnath player, been about 2 years for me, how about you? lol)

Despite most of the recent discussion revolving around new commanders, I simply want to document some slight surprise at where my three current commanders rank. I liked reading this list.

Jhoira of the Ghitu. I didn't expect her to rank so highly... but my deck with her revolves primarily around getting the highly costed chaos cards out early, so my deck is no real gauge. Why is she ranked tier two?

Mogis, God of Slaughter. Built an attrition deck off of him that makes people discard hands, prevents them from gaining life, prevents them from drawing cards, prevents them from having lots of creatures, the works... I love playing with him. Why is he ranked as low as tier four?

Kuon, Ogre Ascendant. He's placed right where I thought he would be. At the bottom. I love my sacrifice deck I made for him, he runs amazingly when it goes off. Prevents most people from gaining any significant creature board state when he's an enchantment. Still, this one I have no illusions about, and am not surprised at all to see him tier five.

I can say from experience that Omnath is capable of allowing you to play your entire library between 60 to 80% of the time by turn 5 to 6 with a semi optimized build that doesn't include Gaea's Cradle.

With that being said Omnath certainly can not do that if the whole board is targeting him and he is far easier to disrupt than the majority of the tier 2 generals