Uril, the Miststalker tier 3 ?

With Yisan's recent showing in the tournament held on the cEDH reddit, is it that crazy to consider moving him up to tier one?

@Connorav Uril, while powerful, is very narrow. His only method of victory is combat damage, he dies to sac effects, and he needs auras too be good, which is bad because it inherently opens you up to X for ones.

Can anyone direct me to a competitive Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck? I remember seeing one on here (the one with all the alters) but I can't seem to find it again, or really any optimized list. Thanks.

@ PotatoeWizard:

Here's Angelforge's list. It's the one most people talk about when they think competitve Alesha. Link

And of course I can't miss an opportunity to blatantly self-advertise. My List

PotatoeWizard - do you mean this one? The Unfair Girl, The Daughter of Kaalia

Thank you both :)

Aw man I like Kazuul ;_;

Dredge4life that implies you aren't using sac protection and you aren't using Mayael's Aria

@Connorav the issue is even if you have those cards, he can only win through combat damage. One of the discussions referenced Omnath, Locus of Mana as a voltron general, and thus not good because that's minimum 63 damage across three opponents to win. That said, Omnath is good because he has other abilities that are useful outside combat. He can store G in your pool and gives you early access to powerful spells such as Tooth and Nail that can just win you the game. Uril has no such secondary use. His sole purpose is to beat face, and after he died all of your auras are now gone, and you need to start over. Even Bruna, Light of Alabaster is better because she can recur her resources, Uril by himself cannot. He's way to narrow to be anywhere but where he is.

It might help some of the discussions that pop up here if it was noted in the title that these tiers are divided up with a multiplayer/group format focus. I know that is the assumed default for EDH, but I think there are enough people whose primary EDH play experience is derived from 1v1 games that it is worth clarifying in the hopes of preventing some unnecessary debates.

Just out of curiosity, now that The Gitrog Monster has been out, how has he been playing? Not goldfishing, but actually matches.

@Aggro-Blaster I've been using him in my group for the past month or so and out of 10ish games I've lost 1.

From scooping. Someone Rite of Replicationed a Deathrite Shaman :\

If you don't me asking what decks does it typically play against?

I've recently made a very untuned Gitrog and in multiplayer I haven't lost yet. But now I'll probably have a target on my head.

I remember some people saying it had potential for tier one. Any updated thoughts on that?

@Aggro-Blaster it usually plays against 1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck, at leat 1 control deck, and a Marath, Will of the Wild or combo/enchantment Heliod, God of the Sun deck.

there isn't a whole lot of graveyard hate in my group, but Gitrog tends to die a WHOLE LOT, gets countered, my Dread Return has gotten countered and I've almost lost from it, but I used Yawgmoth's Will with more reanimation and pulled through.

and yeah, it can be tier 1 with enough expensive ramp and tutors, but I made a fairly budget build for myself, save for Lion's Eye Diamond but that's basically necessary. if you wanna check it out its Oh Gitrog! Who'd you eat this time?.

@[SaberTech]

It is actually written in the tags, under the name (multiplayer)

-sigh-. I loathe graveyard hate--largely because I tend to play decks which are unfavorably impacted by it pretty considerably--but, really, it's a necessary evil, what with how absurdly powerful the graveyard has been made as a resource over the years. I suppose this is just a complaint about the design of the game itself, but whatever--it's irrelevant, anyhow.

Also, that's a fairly slim meta, I would say. And, in that meta, you sound like the rock to everyone else's scissors, even though they could just as easily be using paper.

Frankly--at least if you're a control deck--it makes sense to pack some graveyard hate. Sure, you might be wishing to use your own for various reasons which further your draw-go game plan, but any other graveyard is very likely to be an actual resource to its respective opponent that would otherwise escape your grasp. Sure, you run the risk of letting them mess with your graveyard if you want to keep your own around but deny them theirs, but decks built around such interactions are normally tier three at best.

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, when it comes to EDH.

@NoOneOfConsequence well, there's always diversity. I'm just stating whats usually happening b/c my bf is almost always in the game with me and he plays Scion. as for marath/heliod that's just another guy in my group who's basically always there.

that's, and I always get focused by everyone but the control player. i tend to be killed off within the first 15 rounds of the game, so I've been growing fangs lately.

@thegigibeast

I still think that it is worth considering putting in the title as well if you end up editing the list again. The tags help for searches, but as my previous comment hinted I generally don't read tags and I'm probably not the only one judging by some of the comments that get posted here. I usually jump straight from the title to the deck, since looking at the deck tends tells me everything I want to know about it anyway.

It's just a thought. I figured that it might help filter out some of the comments that pop up for commanders like Uril, who perform better 1v1 than in multiplayer games.

Well, that is a good idea, and adding it would hurt no one. Gonna add it, thanks ;)

thegigibeast: The decklists aren't showing up in the archetype descriptions. Here are the links for the decklists.

Storm: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/572535-jeleva-grixis-storm

Prossh: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/18-01-16-ejx-prossh/

Derevi: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/empyre/

Brago: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/brago-lockdown/

Yisan: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wanderers-song/

Jarad: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/578765-jarad-graveyard-midrange-creatures-are-just-dying

Damia: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dominus-dreamcrusher-edition/

Tasigur: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/reality-within/

Just put them in hyperlinks to fix the links. Thanks!

Speaking of decklists, I think we're finally ready to start compiling links to the best builds of the Tier 1 and 2 commanders and adding a list in the description. Thoughts? It was discussed before the most recent comment update a bit, but no conclusions were reached.

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it--but, of course, I don't exactly possess any of the actual links myself. I don't actually own decks for any of the tier one or two commanders in paper, sadly--not that I would be linking them, of course, but I'd be far more likely to be able to link to actual optimized decklists, were that the case. Nonetheless, I suppose I could just do some searching around the site--but, of course, any results thereof are likely to be heavily discussed. That's what I'm here for, though!

Before we add decklists, I feel that some changes need to be made to tiers 1 and 2. Some of the commanders, especially the control ones, just aren't up there with Prossh and Zur. Time for another mega-post.

Tier 1

Narset and Teferi

I grouped these two together as i feel that their opening gameplay is similar. Play a bunch of rocks, play a powerful spell (Narset's is Narset, Teferi's is a stax piece), then win from there. They both ran a ridiculously high amount of ramp, and were powerful enough for tier 1. However, with the removal of partialing, I feel that their consistency has been impacted severely. Now, the turn 2-3 Narset and the turn 3-4 lock isn't a thing. They're at least a turn, if not more, slower, and they haven't been performing as well as people think. This is why I believe that they should be demoted to tier 2. However, I'm fully decided on this yet. The only thing I'm firm about is that if either one of them is demoted, the other should be demoted as well. If we're demoting a deck that relies on a 6 mana wincon, then we should demote the other one as well.

Notes:

• Both Narset and Teferi well well deservant of their tier 1 placement before, and most of us are in agreement about that.

• Their general gameplans are as follows: Narset plays a bunch of rocks and rituals to accelerate out an early Narset, then swings and hopefully wins. Very glass-cannony, usually can't win without Narset. Teferi plays a bunch of rocks to get an early lock, then casts its general and uses his -1 to pay for Stasis and the like. Eventually wins by tutoring The Chain Veil and going infinite.

• I feel that Narset is slightly weaker than Teferi, mainly due to her reliance on combat damage. Teferi can pretty much play his entire gameplan without interacting with an opponent (the exceptions are counters, Rift, and Intellectual Offering).

• If Narset is attacking through an empty board, she'll probably win that turn. However, Teferi's playstyle is a lot slower, giving opponents time to react and possibly break the lock.

• If you couldn't tell, I'm really on the fence with these two. If some other people could weigh in on this, that would help a lot.

• Tier 1 -> Tier 2 (maybe)

Tasigur

Tasigur is one of the commanders that should probably be demoted. The biggest problem with control is that it runs a lot of counters and spot removal, and uses them across the entire game. This generates a lot of card disadvantage as it stacks up, and a draw engine is needed. This is the main reason that other control commanders like Damia and Azami are so strong; they can draw enough cards to prevent you from going hellbent (and they can fuel Forbid locks, but this is pretty uncommon). However, Tasigur doesn't have that. The way I see it (correct me if I'm wrong, more experienced Tasigur players), Tasigur is most useful as a wincon in the command zone. He can also generate decent value, in addition to useful politics, but most lists play him, as opposed to Damia, as once you have infinite mana, you can just win. In Damia, you usually need a tutor after you generate infinite mana. Tasigur can get around this by drawing the entire library and then winning through Swan Song shenanigans. It doesn't seem like it's as powerful as Damia. While he did great in French, I don't see the upside to him vs Damia.

Notes:

• Admittedly, I haven't played against that many Tasigur decks. If someone with more experience can write more about him, that would be great.

• Tasigur's real cmc is closer to 3, or 1 lategame, so he's not as expensive as he may seem.

• I've played a lot more Damia than I have Tasigur, as Damia was one of my first decks. I may be a little biased, so factor that in.

• Tier 1 -> Tier 2

Tier 2

I've been trying to get a smaller tier 2 for a while, so I'm going to be more critical than I probably should be. I really feel that a lot of the generals in tier 2 underperform, so it would be good to get rid of some of them.

Child of Alara

5c Control isn't great. It's slower, less consistent, and just not as powerful as some generals like Azami. The general is just a boardwipe, and sometimes a rattlesnake card, but isn't as good as a draw engine like Damia or a wincon like Tasigur. Just not as strong, and for 5c Combo decks, you'd rather have the backup of Buried Alive + Nooze to win instead. However, Child isn't awful, as the "emergency button" nature of the card allows for safer boardstates than commanders that want to combo or surprise win with infect.

Notes:

• Child can be good in some scenarios, but I personally prefer Scion.

• Child might not get you targeted as much in less competitive tables, so there's that.

• Tier 2 -> Tier 3

Jhoira

I really don't think Jhoira is that competitive at all. She's more of a pubstomp commander than anything, like Kaalia and Uril. The normal scenario would be t1 rock, t2 Jhoira, t3 suspend a boardwipe and a bomb (e.g. Obliterate and Blightsteel) then wait 4 turns and hope nobody wins by then. However, this is basically the definition of a tier 3 deck: slower than tier 1-2 decks (wincons on turn 7-8 as opposed to 4-6), easily disrupted (counters for the suspended spells, removal on Jhoira) and not a great backup plan (some decks have no backup plan). Best-case scenario would probably be turn 1 Jhoira and suspend a thing, then hope to get your Blightsteel with haste on turn 6. Jhoira has a bad reputation for beating more Timmy-like decks, but really can't do so well in competitive metas.

Notes:

• I haven't seen any Jhoira decks running the Clockspinning-type cards. That's probably for a good reason, but they might speed the deck up by a turn.

• I could see a Jhoira control deck that uses the general as a wincon. The problem would be that there would be a lot of dead cards in your hand until the time you can drop the wincon. It may merit some testing.

• Tier 2 -> Tier 3

Marath

Aggro doesn't usually do well. There's the "120 damage" problem, and the fact that general damage isn't as reliable, what with the ability and all, it doesn't seem powerful enough to "hold its own" against combo decks or a lock. The combo helps a bit, but since there aren't as many tutors in Naya (as opposed to anything with black), it's not consistent enough to pull off most games. The deck can do well in more casual metas, which fits itself into the tier 3 description.

Notes:

• Marath decks would probably do better as a hybrid build; drop stax pieces, beatdown with Marath and a bunch of tokens and elementals.

• Tier 2 -> Tier 3

Other Notes

• Judging from the results of the /r/competitiveedh tournament, Yisan may be stronger than expected (sorry for the self-promotion, not pushing my decklist, so this probably doesn't break the rules). (PlattBonnay said this earlier, but not enough people saw it.) Like he said, it might not be crazy to move him up to tier 1. He's better than most of the decks in tier 2. More discussion is probably necessary.

• I'm glad that some changes have been made so far; all of them (in my opinion) are good.

• We should update the description to include the links; Tappedout has a handy hyperlink feature that is easy to use.

As always, thanks for reading. Tried to make it less "wall of text-ish" and easier to read.

I can't say I agree with any of your proposed changes with the exceptions of Child, Yisan, and possibly Tasigur.

Teferi remains the strongest mono blue commander by a fair margin. He still consistently locks the board early on and wins by turn five by one of several means. He was at the lower end of Tier 1 to begin with, true, but the mulligan change actually did not impact him as much as you would lead us to believe. Being primarily a stax build with a large amount of redundancy meant he was never as reliant as partial paris mulligans as devoted combo decks.

Jhoira is one of the stronger commanders currently in Tier 2. While she rarely wins before turn 5, she wins every game by turn 6, if that makes sense. She's a bit like Hermit Druid combo, which goldfishes 99% of its games by turn 3. She drops several bombs on turn 2-3, then slows down faster decks with countermagic and other protection until her suspended spells resolve.