I personally feel Optimized/up to date outweighs information. Information is great, but if it's info tacked on to a substandard deck, it's not doing anyone any good. That Edric deck looks pretty solid.

As far as I can tell, the MTGS list is optimized and up to date.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/216887-donalds-edric-spymaster-of-trest

How come Sen Triplets is tier 3? The glorious ramp of artifacts with the combination of the best removal in the game + the removal of rule 4 making their abilities more effective?

Sen triplets pulls too much hate to make them viable. And for a generic esper commander, Oloro is just better as he gives you card advantage.

You should bump Kaalia to teir one, it's ability to bring out Iona and destroy your opponent is so strong.

You may be able to destroy one opponent with Iona, but not a whole table. She is not anywhere close to Tier 1.

Lilbrudder sorry I forgot this was a multiplayer list. Kaalia is bad in multiplayer EDH, everyone is going after you as fast as possible.

No worries. Kalia would definitely be a scary 1v1 matchup lol

Kaalia's biggest issue comes from the fact that it relies on her almost entirely for the deck to work. So if you can keep Kaalia off the board, the whole deck suffers as typically she is full of high mana cost creatures and struggles to actually hard cast most of them.

kaalia is terrifying in 1v1, and in emperor its a powerhouse, but in normal multiplier its either a huge target who dies almost immediately or it end up durdling and doing nothing.

I wanna say that Kaalia's lack of blue is whats really keeping her from tier 1

I dont think Kaalia needs blue. She would be more powerful if she access to green me thinketh. It would give her more ramp and creature tutor options. Imagine Kaalia being fueled by Captain Sisay or Survival of the Fittest.

blue would help her stay on the board, where she needs to be for the deck to work. with blue she can do something about counter spells.

Yes, except that you then need to hold up mana for counterspells, slowing her down. Green lets her speed up even more as you have access to many one drop ramp effects that are unique to green. Outpacing control decks is a very viable strategy which would help drive the deck more than having to cut a bunch of threats just to include counterspells.

Regardless, shes not getting any new colors and will stay in tier 2 because of her glass-cannon game plan

I thought Edric, Spymaster of Trest was banned in EDH?

I kinda think that meren should be a tier 1 commander. There are many low mana curve infinite's that can be implemented (especially when you mana ramp) and many ways for this deck type to stax out a competitor. Meren goddess of death and rebirth mine may not be the fastest of meren decks, though it beats pretty much all tier 1 decks I have played against and can combo off more than 85% of the time.

@ajacobik: The best Scion decks (or any 5C for that matter) don't actually build around the commander. They run 5C combos like Hermit Druid and Ad Nauseam as their win condition. Scion isn't Tier 1 when built around. He just happens to offer the best backup win condition of any 5C commander, so to the victor goes the spoils of all the combo builds.

@Tyrannosary: Edric is only banned in French commander, a completely different format. This Tier list is for multiplayer EDH.

@trobaldo: As a Meren player myself, I have to disagree. While she is arguably the strongest Golgari commander, she doesn't quite stack up with Tier 1. She's fairly fast and extremely resilient, but she's not terribly consistent. She also doesn't have the tools to deal with fast combo decks, which is what really separates her from, say, Karador. She's right in line with the upper end of Tier 2.

Are those actual tier 1 decks you played against, or decks that happen to have a commander that can be Tier 1 when built correctly? I'd recommend testing against some of the decks linked here on here if possible. Optimized decks tend to be extremely rare out in the wild.

Ok, I don't really know the ban list for all the different commander game types since I don't play commander that much/competitively. I thought I read it somewhere and now I know it was from a French commander ban list :P

ok I've actually began to question the reliability of this tier system if you base Sen Triplets primarily on "hate" when its highly subjective on the play group, let alone the fact you think Sens hated more than Oloro

@Connorav: If someone tried to explain Sen Triplet's tier placement based on how much hate it receives, they were not a reliable source. Commanders are placed based on their performance in a competitive 4-player pod. Triplets are mainly played in cEDH for their ability to Silence one opponent every turn, making it easier for them to combo off with something like Ad Nauseam. Unfortunately, shutting down one opponent's countermagic with the added ability to play their cards isn't all that amazing. It doesn't quite line up with the majority of the commanders currently in Tier 2. Indeed, Triplets unfortunately fall into the category of "Why would you ever play this commander when Zur the Enchanter exists?" since their optimized build looks vaguely like his, but they bring so much less to the table.

Alright, time for a little analysis of Sen Triplets. Let's break down the deck.

What are the advantages of running Sen Triplets over the best Esper general (and probably the best general in the game right now), Zur?

• Prevents a single opponent from interacting on a combo turn

• Steals mana rocks

• Can remove opponents' combo pieces

Going off that, the best deck for this archetype would be combo-control. The best upside of Sen is probably the interaction fighting, and the other two upsides can either advance your gameplan slightly, or prevent other, faster combo decks from going off. However, since your general isn't a combo piece (Sharuum) or a way to accelerate the combo (Zur) or a way to gain extra Ad Nauseam cards (Oloro), your general is (in this case, for this part of the general's upside) just a more expensive, worse, Grand Abolisher. This isn't always bad, as having key protection against the Damia or Jarad of the table every game is fine. However, having Necropotence in the command zone is probably more powerful.

Stealing rocks and other key cards (FoF for example) is nice as well. However, this probably slows down your gameplan. Your commander is 5 mana, and when it comes down, you have to wait for a full turn cycle for it to have any effect at all. If you cast it on turn 3, then you'll be exposed to the Nature's Claims, the Krosan Grips, and Putrefys that the enemy throws at you. This really isn't a good thing. Since your commander had no effect when it came down, unlike Sharuum which at least reanimated something. If Sen sticks around for another turn or two, then sure, you gained a bit of CA, but if you do, you also delayed your combo for a turn or 2.

Let's look at a sample line. You cast your general on turn 4, it survives a round. Turn 5, you choose the Zur player, steal his Gilded Lotus (it's a suboptimal Zur list). Turn 6, target the Damia player, using the mana from Lotus Bloom to cast his Mana Reflection. Turn 7, cast Monolith and win. This wins on turn 7, 2-3 turns slower than tier 1 decks, and 1-2 turns slower than tier 2 decks. That is basically what defines a tier 3 deck.

Sen Triplets brings zero consistency additions to a game, doesn't advance your gameplan, and the combos are much slower. If you want artifact-based combos, Sharuum is better. Control, Zur is better. Anything, Zur is better. Yeah, the point is, there's no benefit to running this instead of Zur. Zur master race!

Am I allowed to comment? Sen Triplets is my favorite commander and my preferred choice. I would just explain why she is tier 3 over tier 2 or 1. I know the rules don't technically allow me to argue, but I would like to try and argue the point with her.

Never mind. I think Leinahtan basically said it all.

Can someone explain to me why Prime Speaker Zegana is better than Momir Vig, Simic Visionary please? The tutor on a stick option seems better to me than one-time draw power.