trobaldo: Look up Boonweaver Giant combo on google. That card is why Karador is tier 1. It can win before anyone else has even played a land.

Lilbrudder: That's not why Karador is so powerful. Any Abzan commander (or even any Selesnya technically) can run the Boonweaver Giant / Pattern of Rebirth combo. It has nothing to do with the commander.

The reason Karador is so powerful is because he brings a level of resilience to the deck that most other commanders can't. He opens up your graveyard for use every turn while reducing his casting cost just because you're playing on theme. And in the best reanimator colours, with the ability to run heavy ramp. He makes the deck very hard to stop short of running very heavy graveyard hate.

All of what you say about Karador is true. However, boonweaver is significantly less effective in green/white builds due to the lack of comparable tutors and sac outlets. That combo is what sets him apart from generals like Meren. Moreover, tier placements are heavily dependent on color scheme and without that combo Teneb wouldn't sniff tier 2, because he is otherwise a slow clunky general dependent on combat damage to do anything worthwhile. I am curious what the rest of you think. If Boonweaver Giant was banned would Karador still be tier 1?

OK I just looked up that combo. It's the same as a combo in meren using sidisi and yours cost more Mana.

You do it once a turn to get a creature of your choice. I can do it once a turn to get anything I want

@ trobaldo

When the Boonweaver Giant combo is done right, it can put every creature in your library into play in one turn. The combo can potentially be pulled off as early as turn 2 or 3. Normally you reanimate boonweaver from the graveyard to get it out early.

Competitive Karador decks also utilize white for its stax cards to disrupt opponents and keep them from stopping the combo, which Meren doesn't have access to.

@tkdman: You're right, but you're forgetting one thing: Yisan is an immensely powerful commander that wins every game by turn 5 at the latest if left unchecked and offers unparalleled toolboxing ability. Omnath is a medriocre commander. Of course their decks are equally powerful without their commanders; they run extremely similar shells. That's like saying Dakkon Blackblade and Zur the Enchanter should be in the same tier because their decks are similar in power without their commanders.

@trobaldo: You must have looked up the wrong combo. True Boonweaver goes off in a single turn and puts every creature in your library into play, then allows for infinite graveyard recursion loops. It's essentially Guide+Lark combo with Pattern of Rebirth stapled on once it gets going. All the combo requires is Boonweaver / Pattern / Rector in play with a sac outlet to win on the spot.

Anyway, it looks like the people have spoken. Looking at Leinahtan's Poll, it was voted that Yisan be moved up to Tier 1 by an overwhelming 14 votes to 5.

No literally turn 1 or "0" if you play first. Obviously turn 2 or 3 is more common, but still...Just play a swamp and play Dark Ritual to cast Viscera Seer + Entomb + Reanimate to put boonweaver into play. The next step is long and complicated but it involves Karmic Guide and friends to put every creature in your library into play. From there you can sac and reanimate creatures endlessly to kill the board with something like Blood Artist

Wait so we're basing a commander around a single combo in the deck that can be done in any abzan deck? And not on the actual commanders built-in synergies and abilities? What are the percentages of that combo going off turns 1 through 5? I'm pretty sure tier are supposed to be based off the commanders actual merits.

And to that poll you ran. How many of us knew about it? I didn't so I didn't even get to vote. Just take the census from this last week's debate on this forum for yisans placement

...Obviously color identity plays a "role" in the tier placements along with the combos available to the color scheme. To not factor in color and combos would be foolish. Yes the commanders own abilities also play a "role" but you cant just say commander x in mono white has a better ability than commander y who is in BUG colors so it should have a better tier placement even though commander y wins 2 turns earlier on average. Seriously, What is so hard to understand about that? Also Karador and boonweaver combo have "Synergy" with one another. Other commanders in that color scheme don't (with the exception of teneb). So the combo works best with him and some variation of that combo wins on turn 3 or 4 consistently and he is a great fallback in a longer game.

It just seems that most of this is pure perfect world speculation. I looked at your tier 5 list and using lord of tresserhorn I can Win on turn 4. Turn one land and Sol Ring and Torpor Orb Turn two land and two of the signetsTurn three Lord of Tresserhorn with the ability to regenerate and mana to spareTurn four Tainted Strike/Glistening Oil and Chandra's Ignitiongame!

@tkdman: None of this is perfect world speculation.

Also, that scenario with Tresserhorn is all well and good, but what about your other two opponents?

Did you look at Chandra's ignition? It hits each opponent and each other creature. Clears the field of everything except tresserhorn and hits everyone for 10 infect.

The tier description:These decks are the most powerful decks in the format. The combo decks can go off on turns 3-5, the stax decks get a lock on turns 3-4, and hybrid decks get a disruption engine by turn 2-4. They will commonly be seen at competitive tables, and players should know how to combat them. They are resilient, pack protection and backup plans, and take dedicated hate to truly counter. Never underestimate these decks, as they are the strongest in the format.

Sounds to me like any of the meren stax decks which usually stop other people from playing. This is done just as easily as a prossh deck which is tier 1 while also giving you the recursion of kherador at an earlier time. Is there any other infinite in kherador or is it only the pattern of rebirth?

I personally feel the meren example you have linked in here is not a good example of a meren deck. The top three meren decks are as voted on tappedoutMeren goddess of death and rebirth/Meren's Morbid Masterpiece/ and a deck that won't let me post.... So here's it's address http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/savra-queen-of-saproling/

Maybe you should check out those 3 and tell me that she's still tier 2 when commanders that do similar are tier 1?

Ok, look. A few things:

NarejED: Strawpolls are not an accurate measure of a general opinion. It's very easy to vote on those things as many times as you like if you're inclined to cheat. (Not saying anyone here is likely to, but the fact that's it's possible throws the mechanism itself into question.)

tkdman & trobaldo: The tiers are evaluated on several factors. If a deck has access to a powerful and consistent combo, it certainly helps to place it higher, but it's not the only factor being looked at (or at least, it shouldn't be).

The tier descriptions have changed since the ones I wrote, but that was the reason I added a clause about deck variety into each tier description. Karador is a deck that can be built many different ways without sacrificing it's power level. For instance I run a Karador deck that doesn't even include Boonweaver Giant, and instead just focuses on recurring large creatures with entrance effects. It's still able to outperform many of the commanders in T2, because Karador's color identity and effects are strong enough on their own to significantly increase the power level of any Abzan deck.

It also helps when a combo is very easy to get off. The combo you listed with Lord of Tresserhorn is cool, and probably worth including in a Lord of Tresserhorn deck, but it requires four peices to work, and two of those pieces, Torpor Orb and Chandra's Ignition, can't be replaced with any other cards. For Boonweaver Combo, the only things you really have to do is have a sac outlet and get Boonweaver into play. Sure, you can do it T1 with the right cards, but even without those cards you can probably still go off pretty early.

Also Meren is a relatively new commander, while Karador has been around forever. Maybe in time we'll promote Meren, who knows?

Hey I was just going based off the resemblance it has to both kharador and prossh. It's like the love-child of the two decks lol.The altered art people made of her even has prossh's horns lmao.

I think the whole argument from both me and tkd is that the current listing looks like it only cares about fast combos that a few of the metas like to run. I personally have played against and beaten most of the tier 1 commanders, and happen to have built a few of them but I believe that a few of the t1 share a lot of similarities to the t2 slots.

@sonnet666 I was not trying to say that Tresserhorn is a Tier 1 commander. I was pointing out that some of what I was Being told about Yisan and others could be applied provided a good build across the board in commander. Personally I don't put much care in ranking commanders on tiers. I believe it is actually a disservices to the creativity that is EDH. It causes people to look at what is strong rather than how can I use this commander.

Also Torpor Orb could be replaced with Sundial of the Infinite , Stifle and Trickbind all of which you would have the mana to cast. You also don't actually need your commander for the combo all you need is get a creature to hit for 10 give it infect and then Chandra's Ignition.

tkdman: You're making an awful lot of assumptions and not really taking this very seriously. Let's break what you've been saying down.

Omnath runs the same cards as Yisan in most cases yet it is in tier 3.

This is wrong on so many levels. First of all, Omnath really doesn't run "the same cards as Yisan in most cases." Omnath as a commander supports big-mana plays, or blowouts like Soul's Majesty. He doesn't support silver bullets like Phyrexian Revoker. He runs more effects like Tooth and Nail, which usually wins that turn. Yisan doesn't run Tooth and Nail, as (from my experience) it can't get 9 mana quickly enough, and if it does, it already has a crushing boardstate with Cradle, Nykthos, or Acolyte.

Also basically your argument is that the deck can be constructed in a way in which the commander is not needed. This can be done with ANY deck period.

That's really not what he said. I could construct a 99-swamp Hakkon deck that never does anything ever. It's the same with and without its commander (but always without). The point about Yisan is that the commander almost always comes down on turn 2, when people are still casting their ramp, then if you think they'll remove him, tutor Sylvan Safekeeper. The fact that Yisan can survive without its commander isn't the purpose - it's just upside. Yisan is an amazing deck with its commander. The same can be said about, say, Seton, another mono-green general. Seton can easily get turn 3-4 Tooth and Nail with its commander. However, without its commander, Seton is a pile of 1 and 2 drop 1/1's. Without its commander, Yisan is a deck full of synergistic creatures with tutors, removal, and game-ending bombs like Craterhoof.

you know......the more I look at Yisan all I see is a crappy Easily destroyed birthing pod. I would personally prefer to use Doran the seige tower.... Its atleast a creature not a crappy birthing pod.

Pod is nice, but it requires you to sacrifice creatures to get any creatures at all. Yisan doesn't. I actually tested out Pod in Yisan once, but found it underperformed. Also, "easily destroyed?" Most competitive EDH decks will run 5-6 artifact/enchantment removal spells and only a few creature removal spells. (My Yisan deck actually runs 11 cards that hit artifacts and 4 cards that hit creatures.) Again, Yisan usually comes out during the signet-casting phase, so unless someone's going to sacrifice their only land to Snuff Out Yisan, then he'll probably survive.

Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero is tier 4 and has a slightly better ability than yisan.

Yeah... no. First of all, Lin Sivvi's ability will cost mana based on the cmc of the card. Yisan can cheat out Craterhoofs on turn 4, for 3 mana. Secondly, LIN SIVVI IS MONO WHITE. If you haven't noticed, mono-white is undeniably the worst color in EDH. Yisan is green, second best. You say the commander doesn't have to come out? Yeah, have fun tutoring... in mono white. Mono green has a ton of creature tutors, some free, some onto the battlefield, some that are creatures already. Not to mention that Yisan fetches all creatures, not just rebels... how many of those rebels have relevant abilities? Let's see, Children of Korlis can help in very narrow situations, though most noncombat damage is infinte anyway, uh, Bound in Silence is nice, Lightbringer can exile Zur, yeah the rest are either tappers, more rebel-searchers, or french vanilla. Compare that to the wide range of artifact/enchantment removal (on 0 rebels), land destruction (on 0 rebels), ridiculous mana ramp (on 0 rebels), gravehate (on 0 rebels). You can tutor up 1785 different creatures, as opposed to 43.

It just seems that most of this is pure perfect world speculation. I looked at your tier 5 list and using lord of tresserhorn I can Win on turn 4.

"Pure perfect world spectulation?" With Yisan, it's pretty close to a "pure perfect world". You can get basically any creature in your deck every game, consistently, and if it was really a "pure perfect world" Yisan can get every creature in his deck out by turn 4. Oh, and that's infinte mana and all your permanents are exiled. Allow me to quote the tier description. (I'll do it for tier 2, because that's where Yisan is right now.) "Less powerful than the tier 1 decks, but still quite strong, these can definitely hold their own against tier 1 decks. They are usually a turn slower than tier 1 decks, or they have consistency problems." Yisan fits this description, and maybe even outshines it. He's less powerful than some of the tier 1 decks, but more powerful than others. He can hold his own against basically any tier 1 deck (maybe not storm, but that's his worst matchup). He's a turn slower than tier 1 decks, but definitely doesn't have consistency problems. Here's the tier 1 tier description. These decks are the most powerful decks in the format. The combo decks can go off on turns 3-5, the stax decks get a lock on turns 3-4, and hybrid decks get a disruption engine by turn 2-4. They will commonly be seen at competitive tables, and players should know how to combat them. They are resilient, pack protection and backup plans, and take dedicated hate to truly counter. Never underestimate these decks, as they are the strongest in the format. (The guy who wrote them must be some kind of genius!) Yisan a powerful deck, gets his engine (Yisan) by turn 2, will commonly be seen at competitive tables, and need to be known how to fight. Yisan is resilient, packs protection and backup plans, and takes dedicated hate to truly counter. Never underestimate Yisan.

I was pointing out that some of what I was Being told about Yisan and others could be applied provided a good build across the board in commander.

Some things, but none of them will be as consistent, resilient, and powerful as Yisan. The point is that Yisan's tier placement is attributed mainly to his consistency, power, and effective combos. He's got his reliable turn 5 kill (Craterhoof), his tutorable combo (Wirewood Symbiote), and his stupid value engine (Sabertooth). You can't find stuff like that in lower-tier commanders.

Most of your comments don't seem like much thought was put into them. Comparing Yisan to Lin Sivvi is ridiculous. Claiming that NarejED was making Yisan into a "pure perfect world" is ridiculous as well. Make Yisan tier 1!

end rant

trobaldo: Keep in mind that many of the Tier 1 commanders that you see out "in the wild" (as NarejED has said) are rarely if ever optimized lists. Just because your Meren list wins alot against "tier 1 commanders" does not mean it is tier 1 worthy. I have found Meren to be quite easy to shut down personally and I would argue that an optimized karador list is significantly stronger than Meren even without boonweaver combo due to the sheer number of quality cards white adds to the reanimator/creature combo strategy that both generals run. G/b is also an underwhelming stax identity because it lacks white. The combo I provided was an merely one example. There are several redundant and overlapping combos that do essentially the same thing. I agree with you that fast combo decks are given too much weight, but we are essentially discussing singelton 4 person legacy. Fast combo and stax are the dominant strategies b/c they can beat groups of opponents all at once.

Now I want to build Yisan. You suck, lol.

Leinahtan I have a friend with a lin sivvi deck. mana.... no problem it runs almost all the mana ramps you could ever ask for in a mono color deck. Running a tribal gives it versatility allowing it to reanimate and have awesome synergies. I also happen to have an omnath deck Omnath of the omnomnom it can also turn 4 kill someone easily and leave behind a massive army of tokens to block, or use them to kill someone with overwhelming stampede.btw his perfect world speculation was about a kharador not yisan

Lilbrudder first of all your comment on "wild decks" is an insult to mtg players everywhere. You degrade the hard work they put into designing a fun and COMPETITIVE edh deck. Also it should be stated that the people in my playgroup have been playing for far longer than I and have avidly gone out of their way to make decks that would honestly cream these "optimized" lists. You do not know them and thus you can not assume that their decks are not tier 1 so please refrain from using that comparison again. by the way as has been stated multiple times by people on this list...... white is the weakest color therefor adding white to the deck doesn't "I would argue that an optimized karador list is significantly stronger than Meren even without boonweaver combo due to the sheer number of quality cards white adds to the reanimator/creature"

(Crooked smile): I really can't decide if you are an obtuse idiot or a talented troll. Perhaps a bit of both...you clearly like to argue for the sake of arguing. Oh well I cant help but feed you so here goes. White is a actually a great support color. It just doesnt do much on its own.

yeah white is a good support, but so is green, or blue.... just not red lol. But i must disagree on the lack of power in it as a mono. Any deck can be built so that it is powerful.

in this case it adds white to a deck in order to as you said create better stax and reanimate. Unfortunately the best reanimates are in black not white so I could just replace all the white ones with black(more black in deck in order to leave out white... simplifying this for you). to replace stax, I like to use the card that stax is actually based on... Smokestack and a bunch of actual black cards that go along with it like say Pox all white gievs is the ability to make your opponents stuff cost more. or i could replace them with cards like Sphere of Resistance in this care the white does not seem to do THAT much more than the combo.

@Leinahtan your wonderfully written rant has convinced me: let's go tier one Yisan.

As for the white debate. My thoughts are as follows.

What I believe white to be best for is permanently getting rid of problematic permanents. Path to Exile is one of the best one mana non U spells in the game. It also has the most mass creature removal, like Wrath of God. That said, all of the things that tier one and two care about are terribly represented in white. It absolutely has little to no ramp or card draw, its strongest general would be something along the lines of Eight-and-a-Half-Tails and it can't instant speed disrupt opponents or reliably protect itself, outside of cards like Silence and Brave the Elements. Nobody is saying white is inherently bad, just not as good as the other colours for things that EDH is trying to do competitively. I'll always love my Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite wrath deck, but it will never be tier 1. White's only place in cEDH is as a support or an add-on, with the occasional stax piece. This was hastily typed so I may have not worded some things correctly.Sorry I'm advance.