All white gives is the ability to make your opponents stuff cost more

Hokori, Dust Drinker, Yosei, the Morning Star, World Queller, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Rest in Peace ...

Come on man, when people say "white stax", they are referring to "white prison". Black Sacrifice Stax is a lot different than White Prison, but both are considered Stax. You would not be trying to use this technical distinction as an argument if you were actually aware of the origin of stax decks, and you hadn't just taken "Stax comes from Smokestack" at face value.

It's painfully obvious that Karador, Ghost Chieftain outshines Meren of Clan Nel Toth, yet here we are.

trobaldo Do you have a cockatrice account? I'd like to play either your Omnath or your friend's Lin Sivvi against my (sadly subpar) Yisan list. (It's the list I have IRL, and I don't have the spheres yet.)

I understand the two are different forms of stax but the original stax is still to force sacrifice, and he had specifically said that meren can't stax. i also would never say either card outshines the other, as meren could do a black stax more efficient than kharador. Contamination anybody?

The point of the fact is that just having access to WHITE does NOT make it more powerful.

Leinahtan I do not have an account. I wouldn't mind getting one if there are no fees though?

trobaldo There are no fees.

Kardor's white identity catapults him from a pretty good commander to a great commander. Check out cobblepott's list here for an idea of an optimized Karador. Notice how many hatebears being in White allows him to run. Hokori, Containment Priest, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, Linvala, Kataki, Peacekeeper, Mindcensor, even Elesh Norn. With all the tutors, he can play a Yisan-like game if he loses; tutor for appropriate hate pieces to lock down specific opponents. (I've said to my friends many times and I'll say it here: Yisan would be busted if he was GW.) Additionally, running white allows access to several combos: Linvala/Elesh Norn + Living Plane, Boonweaver, Loyal Retainers, among others. White allows Aura Shards, Sun Titan, Weathered Wayfarer, and fun Rector shenanigans. White definitely makes Karador more powerful.

is this the multiplayer, or there a multiplayer version of this list? My LGS plays 3-5P pods and my Mayael the Anima, Anafenza, the Foremost and Purphoros, God of the Forge decks have never won, so I'm looking for MP options.

thewyzman: The only one among those capable of reliably winning in a high power meta is Purphoros, and yes, this is the multiplayer list.

As for how to play him, make as many tokens as possible. Then cast Mogg Infestation or Descent of the Dragons for lethal.

The problem is that every time I play the Purp deck, everyone else guns for me like I've got free donuts on my head, then lets decks like Karador, Eldrazi and Narset run wild and clean up. Almost every player in my meta mains blue, or has blue decks... which is why I tried mono-red. Anyhow, this isn't a soapbox, so thanks for answering.

@Lilbrudder: Any chance you could persuade your friends to post some of their deck lists? You mentioned you thought they could 'cream' some of the decks linked in the description. While I'm a bit skeptical, I'm always happy to see people's builds in the hopes of finding new potential cards and strategies worth slotting in.

Whoops, tagged the wrong person. That was meant for trobaldo. Apologies.

Lol no worries. It was a confusing conversation for all people involved I would bet

well first off NarejED why don't you check your meren based off the three meren decks i posted earlier. Second I doubt I could get the members from my playgroup to take the time out of their lives to post something on tappedout especially when I have been away from the store for the past 6 months buried in work. This being said if you look up the most upvoted versions of each of the top tiers here on tappedout you will probably come across the fact that almost all of them will be completely different from the versions you posted with a few exceptions of course.

I must ask though why is there soo much mana ramp in your version of meren..... your cmc is like a 2.6 and it doesn't look like you have more than one way to blow up land...(which happens to be a targeted land removal) so the ramp really isnt that necessary. I can understand ramping.... but it doesn't seem to ramp into anything

I looked through your build when you posted it. I combed through Meren's Morbid Masterpiece months ago, though I just glanced at it again to check if there were any recent upgrades. I didn't find too much useful from either sadly.

Yes, the most highly rated decks on the site look nothing like many of the builds linked here. Sadly, quality decks and popular decks aren't necessarily synonymous in EDH. Look at Mayael EDH Primer. It's the most highly rated Mayael deck on the site, but it's no where closed to optimized.

it seems NarejEDthat your deck is probably one of the single most expensive meren decks that exists.(which as it is makes this a wrong build for a casual format such as EDH) You run fewer lands than can usually be done in any EDH deck safely, while at the same time running a ton of mana rampers with nothing to ramp into, or land destruction.(including carpet of flowers, which is so specialized for anti-blue play that it doesn't belong as a deck staple for any deck) You run meren for no actual reason in this deck, you do not take advantage of her abilities except for an oops an important creature died. So I am sorry that you weren't able to find a useful idea from any of the top 3 but that is simple because while you have a deck built towards the style you like, it doesn't make best use of it's commander.

Yes, the most highly rated decks on the site look nothing like many of the builds linked here. Sadly, quality decks and popular decks aren't necessarily synonymous in EDH

to say that those decks aren't worth the their score is retarded on your part. What honestly makes you think your VERSION is the better one. I hate to be the bearer of bad news bust yours seems to have been made with the least amount of combo's or play-ability of ANY MEREN DECK ON HERE (and is by no ways an OPTIMIZED version) Afterall optimized means does the most for the least...... yours is one of the most expensive I have ever seen and does the least stuff..... the complete opposite

rant over

trobaldo - you should really read the description before you come in here with all your "this is a casual format you guys are doing it wrong" nonsense.

PlattBonnay that may be true but it still doesn't answer the other flaws in the deck after he made a personal attack to the top 3 meren decks on tappedout.

trobaldo: It's optimized in that it outperforms every other iteration of the deck. Currently no other publicly available Meren list puts up the same results, at least none that I, or anyone else who contributes to this Tier List, has been able to find. Cost isn't a factor for deck building here. This Tier list is more or less asking "If every commander could be built without a budget, which ones would be the strongest?" That's why you'll frequently see cards like Imperial Seal, Mishra's Workshop, and Timetwister -- cards that you'd rarely find in a paper EDH deck due to their absurd monetary cost-- used in optimized lists on here.

Addressing some of your specific concerns about my Meren build: The ramp is run for redundancy. We want to be able to consistently ramp hard and fast into the late game. The sooner we hit 3 mana, the sooner Buried Alive and other game-winning cards start coming online, and the sooner we close out the game. Ramp is a key part of any well-built EDH deck. It allows you to play your combo/lockpiece/engine that much sooner. In Meren, having such a high count coupled with a low land count makes her extremely resilient to land hate like Winter Orb and Armageddon, and it allows her to hard cast Tooth and Nail and other game-winning curve toppers that much sooner if needed.

Carpet of Flowers is an excellent in any meta that has at least one blue-splashed deck (read: all of them). Depending on turn order, it can already be generating 1 mana of any color on turn 1. It actually has an edge over Sol Ring in some decks and situations.

Meren makes up an integral part of the deck. She allows for the incluson of cards like Smokestack, Awakening Zone, and Fleshbag Marauder, all of which would not be worth running were she not the commander.

The deck runs a low concentration of combos (Mike and Trike, Mike and Primus, and Nooze being the primary ones) because a high density of non-overlapping combos actually weakens the deck. It leads to the running of sub-optimal cards. Often in such decks, you'll find yourself holding 1, 2, or even 3 different dead combo pieces in hand. Not a good place to be .

@trobaldo Hate to break it to you, but NarejED's Meren list is much more competetive than the lists you posted. The three decks you posted are more casual and play some pretty bad and/or clunky cards. The NarejED list is full of early lock pieces and infinite combos, all of which can be tutored easily. The ramp is necessary for mana-intensive utility cards like Evolutionary Leap, Skullclamp, Survival of the Fittest, and most importantly Tooth and Nail, which can win on the spot if it resolves. Recurring a random fatty like Abhorrent Overlord is cool and all, but recurring a cheap lock effect like Augur of Skulls or Mindslicer is quicker, more reliable, and just as effective at effectively ending the game. Not to mention that two of the lists you referenced don't even run Entomb.

Carpet of Flowers is so specialized anti-blue

made a personal attack to the top 3 meren decks

retarded

optimized means does the most for the least ... one of the most expensive

meren could do a black stax more efficient than kharador. Contamination anybody

Running a tribal gives it versatility allowing it to reanimate and have awesome synergies

Hahahahahaha.

Is this is joke? Like, a practical joke? Where someone paid 5 dollars to tappedout for the privilege of trolling everyone with a colored name?

@trobaldo It is my opinion that it is fact that it is everyone else's opinion that your opinion is fundamentally wrong.

Guys y'all need to ease up a bit m'kay? People may not agree with opinions, but just becuase you're sitting behind a computer screen doesn't mean you can be a prick about it. And moreso, it doen't make you more right. Just makes you look like a tool.

Ok ok ok. It seems like something happened while I was sleeping... I just read through all of the stuff all of you guyz have written. There is stuff I like, there is stuff I don't. There is stuff I agree with, there is stuff I don't.

I will just start by quoting one of the rules (number 2 actually): Please guyz, no hate. I did not brought back this list for it to become a warzone. What I wanted was only to be involved into cEDH community.

Also, this is cEDH, nowhere near casual 20$ decks. I know some people might be insulted when said their decks are subpar or there would be better ways to build them, but that is a fact. I totally agree with what NarejED said up there. As another comparison, I would like to give the exemple of another deck: Sleazebag's Mikaeus, Extreme Sub $20 Budget EDH. Just look at it. Currently, 1519 upvotes (the most popular EDH deck here?), counting mine. I myself built the deck because I found it a good idea, and had some money to spend ;) But I think even the creator of it would agree: it is nowhere near optimized. Yet it is highly populoar. I think that is the best proof we can get that the upvote count or the popularity of a deck is not relevant for the tier placement.

Next, I would like to give my opinion on Yisan (as I am the one you updates the list...). He is crazy. I have been playing mono-green since a long time now, I think I passed all the available commanders and strategies. I moved from it sonce nothing was really suiting what I really wanted to play. You had big creatures, big mana, but consistency was a problem. My main commander in that time was the old Omnath. Then, I started trying to be more competitive. I moved on to a Sliver deck, running Sliver Overlord as the commander. What does it have to do with Yisan??? The ability. I know, sliver decks are fragile and not the best at all, but we must all agree that when the Overlord starts tutoring, well it goes off really quickly. Yisan's tutor ability is different, but does the same thing: it goes off really fast.

There are several ways, as stated above, to get Yisan into play turn 2 (and it also is possible to get it turn 1). This will often make it so that you have your commander in play before everyone else, when the game is still at casting mana rocks and ramp spells. You can start tutoring cards that will put you miles ahead from the other players. You can get so many protection and disruption with Yisan, it is so crazy. Yisan can be adapted to any meta: wrath protection, spot removal protection, MLD protection, stax protection... I mean, he can adapt to any strategy!

Also, as said before, green is the second best color in EDH. It has access to everything it needs to run smoothly all by itself. Also, Yisan covers some of green weaknesses, like to counterspells. What sucks more than having your big fatty counterspelled and not being able to get it on the battlefield??? Yisan's ability lets you get your creatures into play. Without the possibility for them to be counterspelled. Sure, cards like Trickbind exist, but seriously...

I could continue on and on, but I will just say that: I think Yisan is worth of tier 1 placement. I know it is strange, a mono-green commander in tier 1, but I personnally think it is strong enough. I know some people will disagree, and as I said many times before, this list is to reflect the opinion of the community.

So, after finishing this comment, I will move Yisan tier 1. But nothing is definitive: you guyz can still convince me that he is not worth the place. But it will be an hard task. And for you complaining about money involved in cEDH, Yisan probably is the cheapest deck to build. Look that up. Another upside for that little mono-green outsider.

Think we could also get a comments reset? There is a lot to scroll through here and a lot of these comments are within violation of the rules as you pointed out, thegigibeast.

Yep, totally true. I will just copy and paste my last one so everyone can see it.