Torpor Orb and Sundial of the Infinite can also do it and you're playing black so there's plenty of tutors making it fairly consistent.

T5 is completely garbage commanders while T4 is "it could work sometimes".

Phage fits T4 just fine.

I'm of the mind that Phage takes too much setup to be moved out of Tier 4, but that's not a popular opinion.

@KriegerYYZ: Yasova isn't strong, but she's by means bad enough to be bumped down to Tier 5. She offers access to an ability that can be built around to moderate success and does well in casual metas (the definition of Tier 3/4 commanders).

Same for Surrak and Tier 4. He's in Tier 3 because of his ability to protect creature-based combos such as Kiki + Exarch and Palinchron + DEN. He's quite similar in some ways to Sen Triplets in that he partially shuts off opponent's interacting with the deck. Triplets is also Tier 3.

MasterXandar: Command Beacon is another way of getting around phage's drawback. Black also has this card called Demonic Tutor and about 5 or 6 lesser but still good alternatives to it. When you combine that with the 4 or 5 ways to get Phage into play it can be done pretty much every game. Is phage good. Hell no. But no general in tier 4 is good. She can one shot people an be built around to some success. What about that is not tier 4?

Random idea that I had: Since there's a lot of discussion about specific issues, and some issues have cropped up again (sorry about bringing the 6 tiers discussion back), would it be that crazy to make a Google sheet where people could write down questions/discussions and their answers? For example, in one column, someone could write down "Yisan's Tier 1 Placement" and in another column, someone else could write a short paragraph about how amazing Yisan is. We could do frequently addressed issues (6 tiers), put more detailed, more frequently updated lists/descriptions/explanations, and there would be more organized answers to questions. We could link it in the description. IDK, just an idea. The biggest problem I see would be that someone would have to spend a lot of time moderating it. If someone (looking at you NarejED) was willing to put in the time/effort then it could be very useful.

Other stuff: I think Phage and Yasova should stay tier 4. Surrak seems fine in tier 3, but I could see a decent case for moving him down.

That sounds like a lot of work. A 'frequently asked questions' subsection in the description would definitely be useful and doable though. Covering "Why Five Tiers?" "Why is Commander (X) in Tier (Y)?" "Isn't Commander (X) banned in EDH?", etc, would hopefully save a lot of time.

By the way, could we please attempt another comment reset? Having over 1,000 comments displayed at once is unmanageable.

Tajic, Blade of the Legion belongs in Tier 4 IMO. An indestructible 2/2 for 4 isn't a terrible deal, and 7/7 attacking makes him pretty good; his typing & Battalion ability also make him a good commander for Soldier tribal decks. He's much worse than Alesha or Elesh Norn, but certainly usable in casual.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking definitely needs an upgrade to tier 2. It does not run out of steam when you focus the deck around card draw in order to back up the exploding opening hand.

After several hours of tinkering and testing, Shattergang Brothers has been successfully optimized.

The Gang's All Here

Commander / EDH* NarejED

SCORE: 1 | 43 VIEWS

is Zurgo B in t5 because he is slower Norin? or because he is easier to kill? I would think that simply his ability to attack would put him on the same tier as Norin. also with ZB it is easier to hit both cast triggers and etb triggers, though i'm not sure if on cast effects matter in red though.

i didn't mean to say easier for both cast and etb triggersthey can both do it, but zurgo will probably see more cast triggers than norin will. while norin will easily see more ETB triggers

Norin is where he is for his self-flicker ability. He usually runs a weaker version of Puphoros's strategy: have lots of creatures entering the battlefield to triger Purph, Impact Tremors, and other similar effects. He's significantly stronger than a generic body that has the downside of not being able to block everything. Bellstriker is down at the bottom because he's just that, a low-cost generic body with no upsides.

that makes sense, i was just thinking you could use zurgo in a similar deck due to his dash, but that does see rather inefficient.and isamaru is above him because he can block more things, or is it his color making him better for the strategy

Isamaru is more of a color thing. White has way better voltron support.

That makes sense I guess. and lastly why are the kozileks separated? aside from the possibly worse draw effect, isn't the menace body, and grave fill control better, or is anhil 4 that much better, if it is why isn't ulamog gire in t3?

As a Kozilek player, I would say it is rather safe to separate both... annihilator 4 has a huge impact on the game, and casting a Kozilek T2/T3 (look up Juwdah's list on mtgsalvation... No link for now sorry) with the annihilator can lock one or more players already, while NewZilek can't do this.

I would say NewZilek is one tier under the Butcher, like it is right now, even if he is powerful and included in the list I mentionned earlier.

Well that's all the questions I have for now. Just wanted to have some relevant discussion I guess. Thanks for the answers. ;D

Purphoros, God of the Forge is a tier 1 not a tier 2 at all i have used him many times in tier 1 and never said anything about it being tier 2 so you may need to look into that one

i do not believe that your decision of Purphoros, God of the Forge should be in tier two as he is played as tier one for longtime now and all other edh's/commander formats he is stated in the tier 1 can i get a explanation of why you think he is to be tier 2 and not in tier 1????

PurphorosGodoftheForge: I think your username might even be showing a bit of bias there :P

The biggest issue with Purphoros is that he is too hit and miss. Red really lacks consistent tutors and generally if you can keep Purphoros off the board, the whole deck suffers.

@PurphorosGodoftheForge: To begin with, Purphoros is an aggro commander by nature. Aggro tends to be extremely weak in multiplayer EDH due to the higher starting life totals and having multiple opponents to. It's an unreliable strategy that completely folds to any sort of infinite lifegain shenanigans.

Next, as an aggressive commander, Purphoros is rather slow, especially compared to many of the decks in Tier 1. Zur, Prossh, Narset, and Jeleva all average turn 4 or faster wins. Purphoros's average win turn is somewhere between 5 and 6.

Third, Purphoros is relatively glass cannon. He relies on large amounts of creatures entering the battlefield very quickly. He tends to blow through his hand very fast which, in mono red, is difficult to replenish. A few well placed disruption pieces puts Purphoros out of the game for several turns, or even indefinitely. He has very limited tools for protecting himself and for dealing with opponents' plays. If the aggro strategy falls through, which it often does, he doesn't have much to fall back on.

Those glaring flaws have led most of the competitive EDH community to agree that Purphoros isn't a huge threat. He's playable at higher levels, and has some favorable matchups against format-defining decks, which is what ultimately earns him his place at the lower end of Tier 2.

lol you could say that but who not look at that awesome altered art you can get, i have the foil and normal and the alt art of him alt art is the commander deck nah mate i just think he is the best commander around for all reasons, but if you have a edh/commander deck setup right you can use his very well as in useing alot of tokerns and retuern cards to your hand for example Grinning pay 1 red and retrun him to the owners hand and add 2cl 1r play that over and over again deals damage and (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=firecat+blitzhttp://) tokerns witch does not add to the devoation of red as they dont have a mana cost in them and Purphoros, God of the Forge is a 4 drop 3cl 1r even if he gets removed as a enchantment removal he will only cost 6 to return him to the command zone and if anyone has them in there decks it will be awhile before that will come about and you would have already hurt big by then by turn 6,7 people are down low on life totals

Firecat Blitz

lol you could say that but who not look at that awesome altered art you can get, i have the foil and normal and the alt art of him alt art is the commander deck nah mate i just think he is the best commander around for all reasons, but if you have a edh/commander deck setup right you can use his very well as in useing alot of tokerns and retuern cards to your hand for example Grinning Ignus pay 1 red and retrun him to the owners hand and add 2cl 1r play that over and over again deals damage and Firecat Blitz tokerns witch does not add to the devoation of red as they dont have a mana cost in them and Purphoros, God of the Forge is a 4 drop 3cl 1r even if he gets removed as a enchantment removal he will only cost 6 to return him to the command zone and if anyone has them in there decks it will be awhile before that will come about and you would have already hurt big by then by turn 6,7 people are down low on life totals

Ok, not sure about what you were trying to say about the alternate art or the foil (?) but that doesn't mean a commander should be tier one... I do have a foil Atogatog and an alternate version of him and I really like him, but I know that is not enough to move him...

Aside from that, I must say I agree with what NarejED said. Purphoros is really good with a lot of tokens/creatures entering the battlefield, but the deck rely heavily on it's commander to win, and there are a lot of ways to easily keep him out (even if some are artifacts, for now I think about Torpor Orb and others). Also, you have to consider he is a mono-red commander: it lacks tutors and removal. You can deal with artifacts and with creatures (through burn) but enchantments will give you an hard time.

I still do like Purphoros, but he is a the right place in tier 2.