Perhaps I missed this discussion (been busy with school lately) but why is Braids, Conjurer Adept in tier 4 (as opposed to tier 3)?

Yes, she ultimately depends on the attack phase to win and there are no explicit combos with her (minus Paradox Haze) which probably keeps her out of competitive play but a shrouded braids with some card draw/counterspell/bounce all the while throwing horrible control creatures like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur or Void Winnower into play for free (thus keeping your mana open for all that other control) seems like a general that is tier 3 worthy.. I mean Ojutai, Soul of Winter is somehow still in tier 3 but having a general that sneaks into play the scariest creatures in blue/colorless somehow isn't? Is there something I'm missing?

And I forgot to mention it in the last post but yes I am clear her ability applies to all players. It's just that you are in the perfect colors to bounce (or mass bounce), steal creatures, and clone creatures so it seems like that downside can be easily overcome.

The fact you have to wait a full turn cycle in a 4 player pod and that any of those players could simply play blightsteel or half of DE-P combo and then kill her and instawin is far too dangerous. if you want to cheat monsters into play, Jalira, Master Polymorphist is probably better, and less likely to backfire.it is almost the same reason maralen is t4. too slow, and allows opponents to instawin

Okay, late on the discussions cause I was out, but for Azami, Lady of Scrolls, I also vote for moving her down, and will do it after I'm finished writing this comment :p

@OhthenoisesThe way you are building Purphoros storm seems pretty interesting... Do you have a list yet? Or at least the beginning of something? Else I think I might also start working on something...

@KriegerYYZPretty sure you already did, but if you check up the deck that was linked, you will see why. The idea is to have spell countered, and you still get your artifacts. Blood Funnel and cie. I do not know the deck really well, but after a quick checkup, it is good enough to be tier 3.

@rockleemyheroWe already had some big discussions involving Rafiq, but as a couple other generals, he ended up being tier 3 because of the voltron strategy. This is a multiplayer list (mainly based on 4 players pods), and while Rafiq is really great, voltron can't kill 3 other players as easily in multiplayer. If it was a 1vs1 list though, he would probably be ranked much higher.

@DasTreeTeferi definitely is and will stay tier 1. He easily is the best mono-blue commander, his stax game is really strong, and he has control and combo available to him. Just give him a try (look in the description and try to goldfish with the list provided) and you should understand.

I also am not sold on Sidisi being tier 1. I find that Tasigur is much more versatile, has way better control simply because of his ability. It has been stated before, but you can also play him politically, a thing that Sidisi cannot really do... I think that Sidisi is good where she is in tier 2 and Tasigur will stay tier 1.

Sorry for the double post, but here is what I have written so far for Purphoros Storm. Only 3 cards in the deck, but I am also writting a description at the same time. Please post all your ideas on it and I will put it togheter later (need to go work now).

Purphoros Storm

Commander / EDH* thegigibeast

1 VIEW

Lilbrudder, while Sidisi and Tasigur both benefit from Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron, they don't benefit equally. Making an army of non-haste zombies and drawing all nonland cards are so different, there's no comparing. On top of that, why would an infinite combo deck only run one set of infinite combos? I would do at least 3 in each category. So when Sidisi only gets a mediocre result and only from significantly fewer infinite combos than Tasigur, comparing them seems outright silly.

Sidisi also gets all cards into hand, by milling the library, getting a bunch of zombies, Dread Returning Eternal Witness, returning all cards from graveyard to hand. This includes land, something Tasigur can't do. I think Sidisi seems strong in a graveyard-based midrange combo deck, similar to Jarad. I haven't had much time to test it, but it seems pretty strong.

Wait, why can't Tasigur play e-wit to get the precious lands too? And casting three specific colors of mana after an infinite combo doesn't happen too often, where as needing one black to start Tas is simple. Sidisi seems good for a dredge style deck with some chance of going infinite, but if you want to aim for infinite, Tasigur does all that and more.

I am a bit confused. If a general can check all the boxes for tier 1 why is it not tier 1? I understand if you doubt my claims, but to the best of my knowledge noone has built Sidisi in this way before. I'll admit Tasigur is better for a traditional control build and his end game is stronger, but Sidisi has many advantages over him as well. Moreover getting rid of every permanent on the board but your own is gg.

MagicalHacker: There is more than 1 infinite combo with Sidisi. She can also use Ghostly Flicker with mana untap cards (ex. Peregrine Drake) and recursion cards (ex. Eternal Witness). Both combos have multiple redundant parts that fit perfectly within the theme of the deck and are useful in all phases of the game. I am tinkering with also potentially adding Aphetto Alchemist + Mesmeric Orb for a 3rd way to mill into Dread Return for victory but I honestly doubt a 3rd combo is necessary since the combos I have outlined are so easy to assemble and resilient due to redundancy.

MagicalHacker Now you're confusing me. We were talking about the Palinchron + DEN combo, as you said here:

Lilbrudder, while Sidisi and Tasigur both benefit from Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron, they don't benefit equally.

If we use DEN and Palinchron, we get infinite colored mana. Costing a single black isn't important when you have an arbitrarily large amount of mana.

And casting three specific colors of mana after an infinite combo doesn't happen too often

DEN + Palinchron gets you mana of any color (provided you have the lands), so "three specific colors of mana" aren't too important. And it's not like Tas can't run E-Wit to get lands as well, it's just that Sidisi runs it to get all cards back (like Tasigur can). It's not just "a chance of going infinite," it's the same as any other combo.

Sorry if I came off as aggressive again, it's just that I feel MagicalHacker is being obtuse in his description of Sidisi.

Im starting to feel Bug is just tier one. In general tasigur combos through instants, and Sidisi through creatures. I feel reality shift is really strong, but have yet to play against the t1 Sidisi proposal so I dont know if she is actually more reliable or durable

The benefiting discrepancy has to do with how many extra cards in the deck that Sidisi needs compared to Tasigur. With all those extra moving parts, the deck is more fragile. As for the second part, I was referring to limitations on what combos you can use, as Sidisi needs all three to be cast while Tasigur needs one of two sets of two colors (yay for options).

I don't really know how Sidisi makes the infinite combo strategy any better, so it seems kinda weird even to say they're equal-ish.

To go infinite in every color you need 2 lands that tap for blue, one that taps for black and one that taps for green. Assuming we are talking optimized land bases with original duals and fetchlands this is almost never a problem by turn 3 or 4. Even in a non combo Sidisi deck I would play Terastodon Massacre Wurm, Dread Return, Ghostly Flicker, Eternal Witness and the other combo pieces because they are good cards OUTSIDE the combo. The deck also has 15+ reanimation or recursion cards so fragile is not really accurate either. The only advantage Tasigur has is that Sidisi's combo requires a sorcery speed spell or two before everyone dies after you have gone infinite. In maybe 1 out of 20 games will this difference be relevant as most people will kill your combo before you go infinite. Outside that tasigurs "political plays" are great as long as your willing to hold up 5 to 6 mana every turn for a crappy ability and hope to the goodwill of your opponents. Outside of these narrow scenario's Sidisi is a more useful general with more relevant abilities.

@Lilbrudder: Both Tesastodon and Massacre Wurm are are bad in cEDH. They're overcosted to hard cast, and not worth the trouble of cheating into play. There are better targets for the latter like Jin-Gitiaxias. They're not worth playing in any optimized decklist.

I feel like a nice analogy would be this: Yisan to Zur. Zur is probably stronger, but Yisan can get some great games as well. Yisan lends itself to a very specific strategy (creature-based combo!), and won't do great outside of it and Zur can go into a bunch of strats and do well. Yisan runs a lot of cards designed to abuse the commander (Quirion Ranger and friends) and Zur is more of a backup plan/mid-late game engine. This isn't saying that either Yisan or Zur is bad; just that they're different generals to use.

Similarly, Sidisi and Tasigur are different decks. Tasigur might be stronger, but Sidisi can get some great games as well. Sidisi lends itself to a very specific strategy (graveyard-based combo) and won't do great outside of it and Tas can go into a bunch of strats and do well. Sidisi runs a lot of cards designed to abuse the commander (graveyard stuff like Dread Return) and Tas is more of a backup plan/mid-late game engine. Again, neither general is bad or even worse, but it's hard to compare them as one.

I never cast them. I birthing pod them and reanimate them. For 1-4 mana is Terastodon a good card? If your whole deck is designed around cheating cards into play those cards become very good because it can be done so easily

Leinahtan made some fantastic points, so is Sidisi good enough for tier one? Is Tasigur?

Tasigur combo is absolutely good enough for t1, and again, the reality shift slam is super efficient, not to mention he recurs things by himself. the question is only the first, honestly: is Sidisi BT good enough to be t1. Is her slightly more creature driven win con too fragile to be in commander? or is the speed and momentum she brings great enough to power through explicit hate?

those are the main questions that need to be answered.

Basically we are asking if her ability to generate tokens outweighs tasigur's regrowth ability.

Chances are if you have infinite mana both abilities are pretty much on par.

Without infinite mana, however, I feel like sidisi can be stronger. With just 2 dredge effects hitting a creature you can Dread Return immediately provided you can Entomb it and something useful to reanimate. I believe this only due to the discussion before stating that you are never going to really be using Tasigur's ability without infinite mana because it's pretty overcosted and inefficient.

Thoughts?

Her ability to make tokens really isn't that powerful however. And mainly only works to make dread return broken, but serves little purpose other than that and helping her stay afloat after stax comes online.

It also works with other Dread Return esque cards like Victimize and lets you use Diabolic Intent but I understand your point.

Again, at least she HAS some utility outside of infinite mana. Tasigur's ability doesn't really come into play much at all if there isn't infinite mana involved.

@Lilbrudder: "...And not worth the trouble of cheating into play." Gotta read the full sentence. :)

And no, 1-4 mana Terastodon isn't really that great when Jin, Sheoldred, and Void Winnower are all available in your colors.

I personally think she is one of the strongest t2 generals. She just hasn't been played with a truly competitive shell enough to really know.

But I do again admit she is very strong for many of the same reasons as tasi, just too reliant on dread return and to an extent birthing pod

NarejED: Oh I read the sentence I just don't agree :-). I included all the above mentioned but sheoldred, but I have been considering her as in include. One of my strongest control plays is turn 1 Sol Ring 2 Flash + Terastodon blow up 3 permanents then Reanimate or Animate Dead Terastodon that same turn. 6 lands/mana rocks/enchantments for 4 mana is good value and it can be done quite easily. Then just sweep those lesky tokens away with a Toxic Deluge. I can also copy the effects easily enough with Phantasmal Image and Phyrexian Metamorph. In this deck every etb effect can be copied or abused multiple times a turn, which is why it is so consistent. Outside an ETB themed shell I agree these cards aren't good, but when you can copy them or play them for cheap every game they can win the game for you long before you combo off. Massacre Wurm is admittedly less good but its in here against mana dorks and creature based combo like elfball. I have found flipping my opponents creatures with Ixidron and then Birthing Pod into Massacre Wurm to also be a strong play. Again its all the function of the deck. Another bad card is Kederekt Leviathan. But a turn 2 Flash + Kederekt Leviathan followed by instant speed Necromancy every now and again can be quite effective as a way to ensure noone keeps a board position. Either way it is quite encouraging that I can get good results with so many cards that don't belong in cEDH. For the sake of argument. If I agree and say they suck Venser, Shaper Savant wins with the aformentioned sidisi combo too and it only takes up only one slot. Alright sorry for being so argumentative. I'll shut up about Sidisi :p

Well, they can be very effective. To me they seem like a semi-competitive play. In a game of fully optimized decks they are not as effective. You can not use turn one sol ring in examples for how a decks runs. She is in BUG, and that is so strong even without a commander.

Please remember that this is the reason that we encourage people not to promote their commanders. Almost everyone (myself included) is bias, and will rank them higher then maybe they should be.

Remember that tier placement is not an insult to anyone's deck, or their choice in commander. It is a measurement of their power in a fully optimized setting.