Thats fair and I am not insulted. While I have played an extremely unoptimized version of Sidisi a long time ago she is not my general anymore. I rarely even play EDH anymore due to life responsibilities and instead just brew decks and test them for fun. This proposal if you want to call it that is nothing more than my discovery that it is possible to do some things with Sidisi that I believe few people were aware of and wanted to see what the community thought. I like to argue/debate so I apologize if I came across as zealous. I am currently trying an all in version that ignores the creature based control elements I mentioned before to see if I can get the average goldfished wincon under 4 on average.

Oh I agree, in fact, I think all my current commanders are tier 3 or 4. Maybe an optimized talrand could be tier 2, but I'm not running that many counterspells.

Some of my opinions:

Why is Tasigur Tier 1? He seems pretty casual, but then again, I am not a very good judge on cards.

Personally, I think that Teferi, Temporal Archmage should be replaced by Daretti. He is just waaay too powerful (in my opinion) and Teferi is mainly a supporter in most of my blue decks.

Jeleva is a very bad card. I tried playtesting her and she was even less than sub-par. Honestly, I think that she should be Tier 3 at the most.

You definitely aren't a good judge of cards. Simply look at the lists and try to understand. They are t1 for a definite reason.

@Wee_Dragonaut:

Tasigur is currently being debated. As it stands, he's heavily played in competitve EDH (indeed, most players regard him as the strongest BUG commander). He offers good resilience in the form of political recursion, and can be built in multiple archetypes and still be viable. He's just a good all around finisher, slotting into a variety of combos to win the game at instant speed. With the Partial Paris mulligan change, he was made better than Damia, who, with her high CMC, became far more difficult to cast.

Teferi is amazing when placed in the command zone and built around. On top of enabling an extremely powerful stax deck and offering card draw, he has an easily assembled infinite combo with The Chain Veil that allows him to produce infinite mana and draw his entire deck all in one sitting. There's a decklist for him in the description under 'Tier 1 decks'. He's a bit better than Daretti partially because his abilities are overall slightly more powerful even taking into account their CMC difference, and partially because he's in a much stronger color identity.

Jeleva herself is not a good commander to build around, true. However, she's far and away the best commander to head Grixis Storm, which is unquestionably a Tier 1 deck. Again, decklist in description.

Couple things that should be fixed:

• Some of the decklists, like Arcum and Sisay, don't have a list. Either give them one, or update their description to say "List needed."

• In my tier descriptions, it still says "// Dang, when are we going to fix tier 2?" By now we've mostly addressed most of my past concerns with tier 2, so that can be removed.

• We could use Glix's old list on 5c Omni-Rector as a placeholder until someone gets a more recent deck. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/217065-five-color-omni

Just a couple minor things.

Both Sisay and Arcum do exist, and I commented asking Gigi to update the decklinks. The links broke when I changed the deck's names. Here are the updated links:

Arcum: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/arcums-asylum-of-stax/

Sisay: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/stop-being-such-a-sisay-1/

Teneb: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/teneb-midrange-1/

Mizzix: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-04-16-mizzix-spellslinger/

Hotcake_Gotsyrup, I have my own personal preferences. I prefer commanders that do not involve combos (because they get boring after a while) and provide a fun play experience. However, for competitive games, I often prefer commanders that are predictably powerful for me and are keystones to really powerful spells.

Sorry for the update things, I forgot and they got lost in the comments ;) gonna do that tomorrow :p

Wee_Dragonaut, these tier lists are not based on personal preferences but rather which decks are better than others. Your opinion on Daretti being more powerful than Teferi could be because you've yet to see a refined competitive Teferi deck, he is much much more powerful :) Also mono-blue > mono-red

Podkomorka, how dare you! Blue has ber serious wizards that have no sense of humor. Red has goblins that fly, explode, and exploit their severe lack of common sense!

JK, Mono-blue is probably better than Mono-red.

Not going to comment on Sidisi's placement since I run her (albeit in the jankiest list known to man), but I will chip in my vote on moving Azami down to tier 2. Teferi is just better, and was less hurt by the mulligan change.

hey all i am looking into making another edh deck and i was thinking to have Scion of the Ur-Dragon as my commander, I would like some help and input to make him great and have a nice combo's to shut other player's down, i know red well and green but need more help with the others colors as i am not as familiar with them as i am the others and if a deck can be put up for me as i would like to try it out.

The best Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck, in fact, does not really uses him. It is an Hermit Druid combo deck, with Necrotic Ooze and the like. You can look at Epochalyptik 0% basic deck, even if it is not the same general, it will give you a great idea, and it is a great primer.

The main difference with Scion is that you have the opportunity to run some backup combos using dragons, like Moltensteel Dragon + Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or Atarka, World Render + Moltensteel Dragon .

If you want to build a tribal Scion deck, the best idea would be to go into the reanimator route, since you can fill the grave with dragons then try to mass reanimate them and crush your opponents. Even if it is not a tier 1 deck, it is still really great.

For the colors, how I usually consider them in my 5c decks, white brings support amd exile removal, blue brings control couterspell and mainly draw, black brings removal and tutor and reanimation, red brings artifact removal amnd chaos (it also brings many cards for the HD combo if you go that route), and green brings ramp, creature tutor and mana fixing, mainly, as well as many other things, couls not list them all ;)

Hope I helped!!!

What is the reasoning behind Sliver Queen being tier 2 and Sliver Overlord being tier 3? Overlord can tutor slivers out for a more consistent and resilient game. Even if you are dead set on winning via Queen combos, I feel that Overlord is just a better commander since you can more easily set up the combo.

Is it just me, or is Azusa, Lost but Seeking built at highest efficiency as a MLD deck where one of the combos is her + Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam + Wasteland/Strip Mine/etc.? I feel like I've seen that somewhere...

I believe the rationale is that Sliver Queen is tier 2 as the head of a 5 color combo deck. She has more utility as a secondary win condition in a non-sliver deck than Overlord with cards like Mana Echoes. As others have said all 5 color generals are theoretically tier 1 due to an OP color scheme but they are ranking these generals based on how they are used. Sliver Overlord is primarily used as a sliver Tribal which is a tier 3 strategy.

Ah ok.

just a strange question, i recently picked up some random cards on a buying binge. but um.

what are the best colors and commander for the most competitive spider tribal. I still want combos and insta-wins, but with spiders.

What all commanders were moved in the most recent update? I'm working on an excel file that organizes this into a sortable list, and I want make sure I'm not missing anything. Is it just Azami?

Also, I noticed that there might be some gems hiding down in the lower tiers, like Azusa, Lost but Seeking and her combos with Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam and Strip Mine/Ghost Quarter, Ambassador Laquatus and his mana dumping to win after getting infinite mana, Varolz, the Scar-Striped and his ability to scavenge cards like Phyrexian Dreadnought onto Inkmoth Nexus to kill players, and more. These all seem like tier 2 material, but at least tier three.

• Azusa has been discussed already and most of us have agreed that she really isn't that good. She's just not fast or consistent enough to compare to most of the other tier 2 commanders. Azusa can't find LFTL or Crucible, and has problems in the lategame.

• Ambassador Laquatus? No. He's really bad, as Mono-Blue has so many better generals (Teferi, Jace) that utilize combos better. You have better wincons, and you'd like your commander to do something.

• Varolz is way to slow. Sure, you can get a 13/13 infect creature, but that's on about turn 4 at best. Then you kill one guy, but the entire table will likely target you to death if you haven't lost to a combo already. It might steal a few games, but it isn't likely to win much in higher-up matches.

I agree they're not tier one. But are they tier two? The tier with Teneb, the Harvester, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip, Shattergang Brothers, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, etc. has to have room for destroy-lands.dec, mono-blue infinite mill, and a deck that I've lost to on turn two in a multiplayer game that went on to win on turn four.

Even if the answer is no, well then are they actually tier three instead of tier four? The way I've summarized the tiers is as follows:

1. Nearly unbeatable by a tier three deck

2. Beats tier three decks, but sometimes can lose to one

3. The average between the most cutthroat decks and the most casual decks

4. Loses to tier three decks, but can sometimes beat one

5. Nearly impossible to beat a tier three deck

If that is the correct setup, then those aforementioned examples of some mistakes in the fourth tier are evidence that it might need some work.

Ultimately, I think the issue is this: it's very hard to trailblaze an optimum build for a commander that is either stuck/built in a casual way or rarely built at all. The first one is especially hard, because the commander appears to be figured out to be low-tier.

Maybe there is some kind of automated "goldfish"-like sequence of spells that will adequately test the capabilities of a deck. One that employs all elements that are likely to be seen in real games, like pressure, disruption, clocks, tempo, etc.? Is it worth trying to create some kind of test along those lines?

I mean, Azusa, the only one (imo) that is deserving of a tier 3 spot is already in tier 3. The other 2 aren't as strong.

• Teneb: Junk midrange, similar to Karador. Basically a slightly worse Karador, but since Karador is so powerful, Teneb is at least tier 2.

• Jace: Best commander for mono-blue High Tide. Turn 4 loot > flip > High Tide > Flashback High Tide is very strong, and can be pretty much unbeatable with no interaction from your opponents.

• Shattergang Brothers: Jund stax, see NarejED's list above.

• Sidisi: Mono-black Ad Nauseam. Currently one of the fastest decks in the format, along with Prossh and Hermit Druid. Sadly, it struggles with interaction, which keeps it out of tier 1. However, if there's no interaction, it will usually win.

Ambassador Laquatus and Varolz aren't very strong. However, just off the top of my head, a possible Varolz Stax build could be nice, utilizing him as a wincon through commander damage. Just a thought, might not pan out.

Crap, I could have sworn I saw Azusa in Tier four...

I think the biggest thing holding Laquatus back is that Memnarch infinites "better", but when you factor in that he doesn't care if permanents have hexproof/shroud (and interestingly, players too) and that he can use infinite colorless mana (there are so many Basalt Monolith combos...), it seems like he has advantages along with his disadvantages of sometimes not being able to win against someone who has an auto-shuffle eldrazi.

Varolz infect might still not be the best way to build him, but I just don't see a sensible argument for how he is significantly worse than the commanders in tier three, and that's even if there is no better strategy for him than infect.

Basically, I think we need a more objective way to determine these tiers. Not that this list is horribly wrong! This is definitely miles ahead of anything I've found like it, but there is always room for improvement.

Ambassador Laquatus's biggest issue that he has absolutely no use outside of an infinite mana combo. While Tasigur, Nin, Oona, and Memnarch all offer some utility, Laquatus does not.