My playgroup came up with something quite unique for mulligans and we really enjoy it.

You know how often, playgroups will do 1 free mulligan? Well our free mulligan may be a partial Paris but anything after than is on the Vancouver mulligan rules.

It adds a bit more complexity but they mainly implemented it to help prevent land screw. (Keep a few lands/good cards and punt the rest for more lands) but it's not abusable to where you could craft a perfect hand.

Azami is teir 1. I won a multiplayer edh tournament with her a few weeks back. I won the last match on turn 5 after a turn 4 time warp. Turn 5 mind over matter. I played against animar and zur. Plus the guy with the expensive zur and narset decks at my store plays very well. Just because a deck is fast really means nothing with the new mulligan.

Finally got around to building my Purphoros deck, and after researching it, I think it could also go into the realm of extreme pillow fort/stax with cards like Smoke and Smokestack. Is the aforementioned storm version better? Is a spellslinger style using the infinite combo of rituals and Reiterate better? I feel so lost on what would actually be best for Purphoros.

Have you ever felt like you don't know where to start while cutting a deck from 250 nonlands?

@MagicalHacker I've been there. Stay frosty, lol.

Saw that you don't have a deck list for Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Not sure if there are any requirements that you want a deck to have for you to put it in your list, but I've been refining my list for about 2 years now. Feel free to link my Prepare Your Salami for the Azami list if you find it meets your criteria.

Aside from The Mimeoplasm (personal preference goes to Damia / Tasigur over Mimeoplasm in my local play-group since Mimeoplasm is easily hated out), my play group has all the tier 1 decks (and a lot of tier 2 & 3 decks, if not all).I find it mind boggling why Azami went down in tier simply because of the mulligan rule, if anything the new mulligan rule seems to hurt other tier 1 decks more than Azami from my experience (Arcum Dagsson, Zur and Yisan being the exceptions).Also Azami is still the only undefeated general within my play-group, and is rarely played due to the amount of hate she has been getting from other tier 1 players, who find her too fast while offering too much control to deal with.

Even if the statement that according to certain people Azami is not tier 1 because of the new mulligan rule (which is highly arguable), Azami is still way above the tier 2 decks, and would still be closer to tier 1 compared to tier 2.I'd also heavily argue that Mimeoplasm doesn't fit tier 1 for a lot more reasons than Azami.

This used to be one of my go-to tier lists, but I'm having doubts with how the list is shaping up recently, the discussion between certain generals belonging in what tier is certainly interesting, but at the moment it's pretty obvious to any experienced player of the format (when it comes to multiplayer) that certain generals do not fit the tier they are put in.

What commanders are you referring to?

@Khat look, we're not saying she isn't good, just that she isn't as good anymore and her unreliability made her worse enough that we, the community, saw fit to move her down. She is still at the top end of tier 2, of course, just not tier 1.

and if shes the one your group can't deal with, I suggest you make a deck that can deal with her. run random shit with Pro-blue or something, IDK. Become the one who dethrones her, man!

@MagicalHacker my Purphoros Storm deck is not really good... I am very intersted in your pillow fort stax version, could you please link it here so I can test it and maybe suggest some things?

Lol derplingsupreme, any general can be dealt with. I made a mono black stax deck that destroys arcum, narset, and zur decks because they rely too much on their commanders. I have also seen meren decks that do a better job at this then my deck because green hits artifacts and enchantments as well as creatures. There are bad matchups for every general.

Pillowfort isn't a strong archetype in EDH.

@AzamiLadyofScrolls: Your Azami build looks really solid. There are a few things I'm curious about though. Why no Patron Wizard? Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep, Dispel, Pact of Negation, Cyclonic Rift, and even Chain of Vapor are much better than Cryptic Command for control. Its high cost makes it difficult to justify in EDH. They're all also better than Trickbind, which is way too situational for its cost. What made you decide to play those two over stronger options? Where are Mana Crypt and Mox Diamond, and why is Star Compass being played over them? No Back to Basics?

What do Ponder, Preordain, and the extra turn effects due for the deck? Why is Silver Myr in there?

Also, @IronBlackZepp: Optimized Zur has almost no reliance on its commander. He's played maybe one in four games. It's Ad Nuaseam and Doomsday that are the threats. The only creature you need to worry about in the deck is Laboratory Maniac.

@Khat: That's fine. Each meta is different. I've had players IRL swear to me that Purphoros is the best commander in the game, and who think Prossh is bad because they only Prossh deck they've ever played against was token swarm build. Unless everyone in your meta is playing fully optimized decks, there are bound to be some weird power inconsistencies. It also doesn't help that less experienced players tend to go for the player with the biggest board state, allowing the combo player to sit in the corner with their six mana and Mind Over Matter and simply win. Poor threat assessment is part of what makes devoted combo builds so amazing.

None of that changes Azami's standing sadly though. Having a 5-drop commander that has to be built around to be good, that forces the inclusion of 10+ sub-optimal creature cards, that takes multiple turns after casting to win, and that plays a rather weak strategy in EDH (traditional control into a combo that costs 4UUUUUUU to go off) just isn't Tier 1 worthy any more. Tier 1 implies she can go toe to toe with commanders like Zur and Karador, which is no longer the case by any stretch.

thegigibeast, it's still in the works, but come take a look at the discussion here.

@NarejED You do realize that this is a multi-player list and not the 1v1-list, right? Having a 5 drop commander that has to be build around is what the majority of the tier 1 lists consists of, this is especially true for the stax decks and the combo decks, the whole reason to play that specific general is due to a certain reason, and Azami is a great card draw engine.The only argument I heard to change Azami is the mulligan change, which still remains highly disputable because it effects all decks - not just Azami, and looking at Azami's drawing power makes me put question marks about the reasoning why certain people believe that Azami has dropped in tier.If you see the tier 1 description, Azami still fits this:

These decks are the most powerful decks in the format. The combo decks can go off on turns 3-5, the stax decks get a lock on turns 3-4, and hybrid decks get a disruption engine by turn 2-4. They will commonly be seen at competitive tables, and players should know how to combat them. They are resilient, pack protection and backup plans, and take dedicated hate to truly counter. Never underestimate these decks, as they are the strongest in the format.

The tier 2 list is written a lot more ambiguous compared to the tier 1 list (what makes a deck less consistent?), however considering the given description Azami should either have become slower (which is not the case) or less consistent - due to the new mulligan rule. I will keep raising question marks if this holds true in a multiplayer environment, the mulligan rule affects all decks that are either stax or combo orientated, and Azami still has her amazing drawing capability to make up for it.If you're going to argue that Azami is un-able to mulligan to find , I will claim the same for any of the other generals in the tier 1 list, seeing how the majority of the decks in tier 1 are combo/stax decks - How is a more expensive and lot less resilient general like Teferi above Azami? Why is Teferi still tier 1, while it's a dedicated stax deck with combo elements, that took a lot more "damage" from the new mulligan rule than the card draw / value engine Azami, which comes down faster than Teferi (this is an example for putting question marks at the decision made around Azami).

I don't mind having Azami being put in a lower tier, the reasoning behind it just doesn't seem to hold true, considering the same reasoning isn't applied to other generals which apparently, according to people, are immune to having a mulligan rule that doesn't let you ditch cards from your opening hand while keeping their wants - this seems very hypocritical to me.

@Khat: I do realize that this is the multiplayer list, and not the French Tier list. I've frequently had to tell other users such. I'm not sure you do though, since you're arguing for a commander who does much better in 1v1 matches than she does in multiplayer.

I laid out several arguments clearly. If you're not reading them, I'm not sure what you want from this discussion. They are: Azami costs a lot. Once she comes down, it takes several turns to win usually, and she can't do anything the turn she DOES come down except draw unless she happens to have Force or Misstep in hand. The strategy she plays (hard control) is not good. She requires a lot of bad creatures to even begin to work. Her win condition costs a ton.

Teferi is significantly more resilient than Azami. Wrath of God doesn't cost him the game. He takes one card to function vs several wizards. He's much more useful on an empty (other than lands) board. He can more efficiently control the rest of the table thanks to stax. He has multiple relevant paths to victory vs. Azami's 1. His overall strategy is much stronger and less fragile. She does always come down faster. 2UUU is roughly as difficult to assemble as 4UU, since cards like Mana Vault and Basalt Monolith can't be used as effectively. Teferi is more relevant the turn he does come down.

Sorry to be so blunt.

@NarejED for each argument there is a counter argument, there is no point to this discussion, seeing how for every example you listed I am able to give a counter example and the same goes for you.However, I just took Teferi as example here (make of this what you want), due to the ambiguous statement of tier 2 being less consistent which is the reason why Azami dropped in tier. The same reason that has affected every single deck in the format aside from generals that are able to directly find their pieces: Arcum Dagsson, Scion, Yisan, Zur are the only tier 1 generals not -or nearly not- affected, after which I would put Azami as being least affected after those 4 due to her card drawing nature.

It seems to boil down to an opinion, that apparently the new mulligan rule is so detrimental for Azami that she apparently lost her tier 1 spot, while others did not. This is what I've been putting my emphasis on, this is the reason why she was lowered in her ranking (not the ones you listed, those have always been pressent and she was tier 1 because of being able to deal with them - something that has not changed) for such a vague and disputable reason, something I still not see properly clarified or argued, and that is why I'm putting question marks to her standing dropping.

Considering she does have to run some suboptimal cards, could getting some of those in the opener and not being able to sculpt them away be the reason? Since many of other commanders aren't constricted by tribal necessities, their openers that aren't great are more manageable? I do not know; I don't run her and don't much play against her, so I just want to offer another avenue of thought, or else clarification for extant idea.

I am very aware of zur and his ad naus builds. I really think it works much better on paper. It is not quite as consistiant as people are acting either. I am not saying he is not teir 1 but I am saying that the plan deos not always work. As for narset and arcum, I think they really are teir 2 though. oh and teferi doesnt see any play at my store but I doubt it is as consistiant as you guys are acting either. I guess we can agree to disagree.

So instead of knowing the consistency of said decks (from admitted lack of explerience with or against them) you would assume? Most of the major contributors to individual commanders have put in time with/against them. Even now, there is a discussion going on about the correct placement for Azami. Commanders aren't placed in tiers willy-nilly; they are (usually) there with intent and evidence. Just some food for thought.

If we are demoting Damia sage of stone for running a similarly weak hard control strategy then demoting Azami seems like it is necessary. BUG is so much better than mono blue in general and damia's deck functions so much better without her than Azami's ever could.

A planted Linvala, Keeper of Silence destroys Azami completeley, with or without commander. Cant say the same about Damia.

Both are worthy of tier 1 I think.

Please let me remind you guys that we do not like people arguing the case for their personal commander. There will be a bias. Also remember we are looking at absolute best deck.

Tier ranking is not meant to be an insult to anyone, or their deck.

I think the ultimate question is, "Can a traditional hard control (counterspell heavy) deck be tier 1?" These are the only 2 commanders capable of pulling it off. Is the strategy worthy of a spot at the top of our multiplayer pyramid?

Btw Meren is tier 1. Why havent you all bowed down to our new overlord? 5 color combo? Literally -10% win rate against meren.

Lol I have never played damia or azami... Only against both, only one of which dies to Worldly Tutor