@himetic fine, I guess it doesn't say that.

now please explain to me how you rate any card in a tier 1 modern list.

you rate it by its synergy with the decklist, right?

for example, kiki jiki. He's AMAZING in his list, but when not in that list what do you suppose we should be rating him by?

I'm simply trying to inform you of the reason. It was not my decision to do it this way, nor do I care about 5c commanders in particular. I ran a janky angel of glory rise human tribal alara baby deck. It was fun for about 2 weeks and it crushed my playgroup, but playing with every possible legal card at your disposal in magic is just too easy. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because who the hell would run the crap 5c commanders for a tier 1 list except to be hipsters? This conversation has become tedious. I just don't get why you are insisting on ignoring explanations just to argue something that by its very nature is simply a compromise that works for most people involved with this list. There is no "right" way to classify a tier system so you just make compromises that make sense. Chromat is garbage and so its tier 5. It is normally used for crap strategies for Cedh. End of story.

Placement is usually based off of typical uses for the commanders. Synergy with their deck as optimized as it can be while sticking to the commander. You wouldn't run the aforementioned niv+ooze in a sliver queen deck same as you wouldn't put gemhide in a Scion deck.

Some commanders are just bound to specific auto includes based on the commander and that's what we are referring to. Not every optimization is the same for decks because the commanders are different.

@himetic If our list bothers you so much, why continue to argue about it? Just move on. It's never going to be perfect or match your ideal, so it's better off for everyone if we just drop it. Most of us like the tier setup the way it is, so we're not going to throw it all away because one dude has a philosophical problem with it.

Here's my issue:

• There are a range of commanders in terms of how necessary the commander is to the gameplan. When a player (especially a new one) sees a commander, they don't ever think of the build that uses the commander as a backup plan or as synergy in worst case scenarios of a highly tuned combo deck or a brutal control deck. Most people immediately think of the build-around-me decklist (if that's even obvious enough, as very few people know what that would be for commanders like Selenia, Dark Angel and Mishra, Artificer Prodigy). We need some way to distinguish in this list between decklists with a commander that are the best fit for a 99 that is powerful enough with no commander and the decklist of the most synergistic 99 around that commander.

Solutions:

• Adding non commanders to the list (meh, yea it's unclear and confusing)
• Using foil/language to distinguish between builds (I think this is a decent idea)
• Any other options to fix this note-worthy problem?

just wanna point this out, MagicalHacker, but if someone comes into EDH immediately saying "I'm going to make a tier 1 deck!" and then does absolutely no research on the commander or anything involving it, they're already doing something wrong :\

DERPLINGSUPREME, that's part of the learning process. They try to make tier 1 deck and fail. They try again and keep failing and learning about the game, format, cards and decks until they success and make tier 1 deck. That's not wrong way to do it.

no, I mean since its a social format. Learning is good. fun is better.

im tired

Why don't we put in brackets beside the lists what it's supposed to be. For example Zur Stax or Scion Hermit Druid? It's not perfect, but it would at least avoid some confusion.

One of the biggest and best arguments against non-Zur Esper generals is this: is this general better than Necropotence? For most generals (Oloro, Ertai), the answer is no. This is the reason for their low placement.

The same can be said for the 5c generals. What is the draw of playing Cromat? From what I've seen, it's the beatdown plan. Now, which is better: beatdown with Cromat or a backup Buried Alive combo? To me, it's the combo, hence Scion's placement.

What's the draw of Sliver Overlord? Probably the sliver combo, which Overlord tutors. Being much slower than Scion, Overlord is lower down.

Just my two cents.

@Leinahtan that is so perfect to describe it as!

I don't think speed is only attribute, which should be considered, when evaluating decks. Othewires it would be why would you play insert deck here, when HD is faster.

Also, if beatdown plan puts Cromat to tier 5, it's not optimized list. Hypergenesis cromat is at least tier 4 perhaps even tier 3 and there's no reason to not to use cromat as commander. If you draw all the mana and no action and have to actually cast commander with Hypergenesis, Cromat is good choice. It can block even flyers and destroys any creature it blocks before combat damage thus giving you time to draw into your combo. Also thanks to evasion of Cromat, it can take out planeswalkers. Sliver Queen might be better, but since I use Sliver Queen as Hypergenesis commander, I will not comment on that subject, because I'm biaseed.

I feel Feldon of the Third Path doesn't get the love he deserves. I know I'm biased, for him being my fav commander.. but his ability is easily broken. Cards such as Sneak Attack, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Tyrant of Discord, Stingscourger, Magus of the Moon, Goblin Welder, Imperial Recruiter, and Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient gives mono red alot of power. Paired with artifact synergy, I constantly see turn 4-5 wins. Unwinding Clock and Clock of Omens make for insane interactions in the deck since the tokens are artifacts. Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Duplicant,Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster add insane value, especially spawning a couple a turn. Overall point I'm trying to make, definitely tier 2. Able to maneuver the whole deck every match (usually has access by turn 3-5), lots of utility for different situations (can bounce, sac, exile, make others sac, infinite mana, infinite combats, infinite wheels, infinite artifacts/creatures), constantly locks board and combos by turn 5. I mean the capability of turn 3 It That Betrays is there. It pulls wins against tier 1s consistently, alot of people underestimate mono red and then they can't respond when it's too late. Instead of tooting my own horn, check it out. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-03-16-feldon/

What is keeping The Gitrog Monster from tier 1?

that's a question I myself would also like answered

but I think its a lack of blue?

There are way too many fucking comments on this page. Mine won't even be read.

But Obzedat, Ghost Council Tier 5!? That's not even correct. Look at all the utter trash in that Tier.

Obzedat is pretty clearly in Tier 4 or even Tier 3. Immunity to your opponent's sorceries in no joke in a multiplayer, sweeper-heavy format.

Parallax Wave + Opalesence + Obzedat is a real EDH deck.

So I know it's going to be like Tier 4-5 but I had an interesting thought concerning the new Bruna+Gisela=Brisela.

Keeping in mind that morphed commanders are still "commanders" and can still deal commander damage what do you guys think the EDH rules guys will say about Brisela and commander damage? Technically your commander is half of the physical card dealing damage.

Thoughts?

I would say maybe tier 4 on Obzedat. Without any easily assembled infinite combos it's a lackluster strategy, adding to the fact that any other W/B general would do exactly as much to help the deck. Draining one opponent for two is not a great way to win, especially if it costs you a blocker.

I think you're looking at The Gritrog monster the wrong way. The question isn't "What's keeping him from Tier 1", it's "What makes him worthy of Tier 1?" Gitrog is best as fast combo. The problem, its main combo (Darkmore Salvage + a sac outlet) can't be assembled quickly or reliably enough to be a format-dominating deck. The big fast combo decks right now are Zur, Prossh, Animar, and Jeleva. All of them go off on turn 4 with some reliability, usually with protection or multiple lines of play. They're also, with the possible exception of Prossh, 1-card combos (Ad Naus/Doomsday, Food Chain, Ancestral Statue/Imperial Recruiter, and Doomsday/Tendrils respectively). I say 'exception' for Prossh because he's technically a 3-card combo, but there are a good dozen cards that can potentially serve as a finisher for his infinite loop, and FC can actually power out both Prossh and a creature win con the same turn it's cast. Compare to Gitrog, who only has a handful of playable discard outlets, can't be powered out for a reduced mana investment, and doesn't offer a reliable backup win condition like Prossh does.

It also doesn't help that Gitrog is only the third strongest Golgari commander. Both Meren and arguably Jarad beat it out, Meren for her unparalleled recursive ability and combo potential and Jarad for his synergy with Phyrexian Devourer and Lord of Extinction. With them both being solidly in Tier 2, yet still stronger than Gitrog, it doesn't make sense to consider promoting the toad.

obzedat deserves tier 4 at least. he is nowhere near garbage. afterall, it basically becomes a turn 5 oloro thats killable at instant speed later in the game, which isn't nothing.

I could maybe see Obzedat as tier 4, but as much as I love him (them?) as a card, it's just an awful commander. Draining just one person per turn cycle isn't good, costing 5 and being color intensive isn't good, and the "combo" with Parallax Wave/Opalescence is cute but not very impressive or efficient. Dodging sorcery speed removal is something that is true, but it has to leave play to do it which is not strictly upside. A 5/5 body is not embarrassing but still gets easily stonewalled. In short, I think Obzedat is fine as part of the 99 of a Karolov/Ayli deck, but it's just too clunky to be any good as a general.

I agree with most of these except Memnarch. I have never seen a memnarch deck that hasnt just straight up won by turn 5 or 6 at the latest.

Pretty much any decent mono blue or mono green combo deck can consistently win on turn 5 or 6 even if not fully optimized. Memnarch is a fine win con but is pretty terrible outside infinite mana. He/She/It does nothing in the early to mid game. Winning between turns five and six is essentially the definition of a for a tier 3 combo deck. Turn 4-5 wins is worthy of tier 2. Winning turns 3 to 4 is worthy of Tier 1.

Obzedat enables an Orzhov Enchantment Prison deck that no other Orzhov general would be good in, as they all revolve around creatures. Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts maybe, but she is expensive and fragile in a deck that doesn't ramp. Obzedat requires no resource to do his thing; so you can focus on resource denial like Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Rule of Law, The Abyss, Nether Void, etc.

Obzedat doesn't NEED to go infinite to win. You load up on all the most disgusting hate-enchantments and drain everyone out. Eventually. I do wish he drained EACH opponent for 2 to speed up the process, but it's not actually necessary when you have other damage sources. Also, the stupid amount of tutors and draw in these colors, AND the recent printing of Starfield of Nyx makes going infinite with Parallax Wave really easy. They are also great on their own in the deck, which not all combo pieces are.

My friends have VERY good Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks, which the deck is totally capable of shutting out with white and black enchantments, then beating down with Obzedat, tokens, indestructible Gods, and enchantments as big as their CMC. Spreading your threats out like this means you don't NEED blue to maintain your board state, it does it by itself.

When you consider Obzedat as a general, you have to imagine the entire deck that ONLY HE can enable in these colors.

I feel like the real question as to Obzedat is "Given the same prison build, why isn't Oloro, with his access to Stasis better? For that matter, why isn't Zur with his ability to tutor out 90% of those hate enchantments better?" Two swings gets you Blind Obedience + Stasis.

Edit: A little tutoring and you can get Frozen AEther/Kismet for complete shut down.