yeah, but we're talking NON tier 1/2.

this is tier 4.

My point is only that if you are trying to build a competitive enchantment prison deck you use esper because the blue prison cards are extraordinarily nasty.

yeah, they are, but since this is about elevating him from the "you can't even use this shit in limited" tier to the "sees constructed play, at least" tier.

DERPLINGSUPREME That's all well and good but the statement "don't even NEED blue" was used which compares Obzedat to Oloro and Zur.

Obzedat doesn't need to helm a B/W prison deck. Ayli and Karlov can do it just fine, and Vindicate permanents to boot. If you're already playing stuff like Blind Obedience and Palace Siege, their abilities are easy to turn on and have more utility. Obzedat is a clock, sure, but is still slow and isn't worthwhile if you can't get the lock.

Good point, OHTHENOISES. Obzedat, Ghost Council is not Tier 1. DERPLINGSUPREME is right: he is not Tier 5 either, so I am trying to get him bumped up to Tier 3.

Why do we care? For me, I wanted to make an enchantment prison deck, but I personally am just not a fan of the color Blue. I don't mind if someone can find a way out of my prison before they die; it's not easy, and makes for a fun game! Counterspells bore me. So i settled on Orzhov.

I see other Orzhov commanders like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Karlov of the Ghost Council, and Daxos the Returned get so much love with AUTO-Tier 3. They are trap cards! They pigeon-hole you into playing shitty 1/1 soul sisters and junk like Ajani's Mantra. Come ON!

My Obzedat enchantment deck SLAMS these decks, they play creatures that just DIE to sweepers. Obzedat DOESN'T. #Whip of Erebos

It really is that simple. Multiplayer Magic = more creatures = more sweepers = more clean battlefield for Obzedat to run rampant on, when he dodges said sweepers. Once you cast Rout with your Commander safely tucked away in exile, you start to see how parity is truly broken here.

That blink ability is SO good in multiplayer, which EDH usually is, no matter what deck you make him the head of. His damage output may go down with more opponents to hit, BUT his resiliency increases proportionally!

In a multiplayer game of EDH, the Council will be in play <33% of the time with 3 players, and that figure drops sharply the more players are involved. His effect, though, is a life swing of 9+ a turn. When most of the rest of you deck is control, the game starts to go pretty long, and the drain starts to really matter.

As far as pure damage is concerned, nobody clocks their opponent with just their commander. The fact that Obzedat can ALMOST do this ON HIS OWN is REALLY GOOD. How much damage is Ayli doing on HER own? Practically none. How much setup does she need to do something? ALOT.

Obzedat, Ghost Council brings alot of power in such an elusive package, and his lifedrain properties and natural resiliency make YOU resilient as well.

I seriously think he is a Tier 3 commander because of this.

You're starting to sway me. Do you have a list we can see? Preferably optimized, even if it isn't your exact list.

I hate to say it, but tier 5 makes the most sense for Obzedat, Ghost Council. Let's look at why.

1. Tier is mainly reserved for cards that have no abilities, and cards whose abilities are so bad that might as well not exist (Phage the Untouchable, Ur-Drago, etc). At first Obzedat might look signifantly better than this, but look closer. What can he do? His ability can be broken down into two separate parts: Drain-gain, and evasion. The 2-point life swing is completely irrelevant. It essentially makes him a 7/7 with a sliver of Lifelink. Still awful. The only possible time the drain could be relevant is if someone has Solitary Confinement or a similar effect in play and <3 life (read: Never). The lifegain ability is largely irrelevant as well, as life is largely useless in EDH save as a resource for dirty Necropotence-style plays (a strategy which Obzedat is not useful to since he hates so long to come down and swing). The evasion is nice, save for one problem. It exiles him, meaning he can't even be used for Voltron, since auras and equipment slide right off. Otherwise, there's really no reason to keep him around. A 5/5 with drain-gain 2 isn't a threat to anyone.

In conclusion, Obzedat is two nearly useless abilities stapled to an expensive, color-intense card in a bad color identity. Tier 5 is the logical and fitting place for him.

It also says pretty clearly in the rules not to pimp your own commander.

Not sure why you think that nobody is EVER at <3 life, NarejED. People die in Commander, for having 0 or less life. It's one of the rules, it happens all the time.

Secondly, when you play Obzedat, Ghost Council as a capable control deck, which his colors DO allow you to do, the game goes long as hell. Your opponents can't combo out. And when you drain people THAT many times, it matters. Double it with Sanguine Bond, throw in Whip of Erebos and a few angel tokens. You win.

Thirdly, saying Orzhov is a "bad color identity" is just wrong. Where did that come from? Besides the actual countering of spells, it has access to everything.

EXAMPLES

Wedge from The Mana Source made an interesting list, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM8f6KVa3LU

Feel free to check out my semi-budget list, http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-councils-ghostly-prison-1/

I could settle for Tier 4, since he doesn't drain "each opponent", it doesn't lend itself well to 10+ player Commander games, if that's what you freaks are really into. But in the ~4 player EDH games I play, the deck performs like a legitimate Tier 1-3 deck.

"Not sure why you think that nobody is EVER at <3 life"

Read my original comment. You somehow managed to cut out half of what I said on that particular point. I said 'The only possible time the drain could be relevant is if someone has Solitary Confinement or a similar effect in play and <3 life (rsituationer).' Meaning you're in a position where an opponent has 2 or fewer life and a permanent in play that prevents combat damage. Again, that situation almost never happens.

"Your opponents can't combo out. And when you drain people THAT many times, it matters. Double it with Sanguine Bond, throw in Whip of Erebos and a few angel tokens. You win."

If you're winning off a vanilla 5/5 with Drain-Gain and 'a few angel tokens', you're probably not playing EDH. Sounds more like 99 land pickup.

"saying Orzhov is a "bad color identity" is just wrong. Where did that come from?"

Orzhov is either the second or third worst color pairing in the game, being behind Boros and possibly Rakdos. It both lacks a good commander and any strong strategy (Fast combo doesn't work because it's too light on dig spells and ramp. Stax doesn't work be cause it doesn't have access to any commander that effectively breaks parity, not to mention no access to green or blue. Control doesn't work because control never works outside of Azami/Edric/Damia/Zur. It requires the ability to generate a large amount of card advantage every turn to consistently keep answers in hand.) Does that answer your question?

So do we think the new delver will see an uptick in Azami? On paper 5 mana for "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery draw a card" combined with a wizards anthem seems really strong

Time for another post, this time on Obzedat.

Like the discussion on 5c and Esper commanders, the same point can be applied here. "What does this general do for my deck?" This is very important. If you look at the tier 1, 2, and even 3 generals, they do something unique that no other general could do. (Jeleva is maybe an exception, but she's way ahead of all the other Grixis generals in terms of utility, making her relevant.)

The point of a stax general is usually to break resource parity. Take a look at the tier 1 stax generals: Brago, Derevi, Teferi. What do they have in common? They all break resource parity through untapping permanents. (They're also all blue! Coincidence?) In tier 2, Grand Arbiter cheapens your spells while acting as a backup Sphere. This is almost always required for a stax general.

However, there are a few exceptions. Some generals have extremely powerful abilities, whether they lock down the board well, tutor, or generate massive card advantage. For example, Gaddock Teeg's ability is ridiculous. It completely shuts out some decks. Daretti refines your hand, retrieves stax pieces, and has a nigh game-breaking ultimate.

What does Obzedat do? Does he break resource parity? Does he have extremely powerful abilities? Surprise! He doesn't. Like NarejED has said, his abilities are really, really, REALLY irrelevant in a competitive EDH game.

Obzedat's limitation is this: HE DOES NOTHING. Break everything down, and, he's just a beatstick with removal resistance. That's not something that we want higher than tier 5.

I might write more later. Also, most people don't take kindly to being called "freaks."

antagon1st there is no point in arguing with them. This is a tier list, but it's not a tier list based around innovation. I like everything these guys are doing. They are trying to show edh through a competitive stand point. Anything outside of that they don't seem to acknowledge.

I think your deck idea is a cool one. I also agree that calling that list tier 5 is not correct. But these guys don't care. You literally gave a reason as to what that card offers to the table. Yet they are saying no because there is a better commander for that type of deck. They are literally contradicting themselves. But hey, I try not to comment on here anymore. Just felt like defending you.

For a lot of decks, the general is a back up plan. You can have a great 99, but if the general does not offer much by way of assisting as a main piece or a good back-up plan, then isn't the general just a placeholder for the colors? What would happen if Selenia, Dark Angel was out at the helm? Would the deck change all that much? Not really. The difference is, she's pretty much useless as backup. I do agree that Obzedat should probably be T4, simply because he is a non-voltron back up plan, unlike Selenia. That being said, if we are looking at his ability, 2 life drain and gain from one opponent is not very impactful. In the long term, he can close out games, sure. If you have everyone locked out, he's a fine clock, albeit S L O W. That being said, I think he can be moved to T4, since he isn't just a vanilla, and his ability can, in the right circumstances (which the deck should be able to achieve more than once in a blue moon) finish the game.

How would Gisa and Geralf rank? I really want to make a commander deck around him/her...

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/gisa-and-geralf/

Looking at it, honestly I think you'd get more value from an Obzedat, Ghost Council using some sort of reanimator loop like Nim Deathmantle or abusing Eldrazi Displacer than you would building him as a prison style deck.

W/B is too slow and too mana intensive for that kind of strategy and it doesn't do enough to shut other decks down.

@Wee_Dragonaut Hard to say, but they're probably about on the same level as Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. The mill ability isn't super relevant, it makes top of library tutors better but that's about it. Casting Zombies from the graveyard is strong, but I can't think of anything terribly broken to do with it, other than maybe casting Sidisi, Undead Vizier every turn to permanently have a 5 mana tutor. That may be enough to push it above Tier 3, but for now I'm not sure it is. Anyone else know a way to really heavily abuse their abilities?

I feel like geralf and gisa make a better addition to the U/B zombie combo deck as part of the 99 allowing you to cast stuff from the grave to enable the combo.

As a commander I can't imagine that they would be any better than gringrin so tier 4 MAYBE tier 3.

I suspect G&G will fall somewhere in Tier 3. The mill ability is nice, but not terribly relevant, and the recursion ability has rather limited targets. There aren't a ton of extremely broken zombie targets for them to hit. The only ones that come to mind at the moment are Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (yay combos...). Ultimately G&G is a weaker Karador in a weaker color identity. Unless ELM brings us a viable zombie-based win condition, they won't be powerful.

So I asked before and no one seemed interested in talking about it. Does anyone think that Azami will get any better with the new Delver? Turning every instant/sorcery into a cantrip is pretty awesome.

Ohthenoises: between it and possibly the new Nibilis of Frost she seems like she could get some strong cards. I'm pretty sure these will just become staple auto-includes for decks like her and Talrand.

Nibilis of Frost isn't a wizard, how would it be good in Azami? You're right about it being an auto-include in Talrand though.

Gates88: It provides solid creature control in mono-blue. Between it and Back to Basics you could provide some serious pain.

New Delver is alright. It might be playable in Azami, but its high CMC and lack of immediate impact will prevent it from being a powerhouse, let alone a card capable of changing Azami's power level.