Psst, @MagicalHacker: Banisher Priest only hits opponents' creatures.

Fiend Hunter then.

Also, Auriok Salvagers does not go infinite with Lotus Bloom. However, it does go infinite with Lion's Eye Diamond.

kengiczar, thank you for the appreciation!

NarejED, lol, it's hard to RTFC sometimes lol. Replace all the Banisher Priests with Changeling Hero.

Gates88, oh I though he returned to the field, my bad! Yeah, you're right to replace Lotus Bloom with Lion's Eye Diamond.

The mirror entity one seems honestly easiest to achieve since mono W is going to have issues milling themselves anyways.

Also, you can use ashnod's/phyrexian altar like I mentioned before to net mana as your sac outlet.

The LED one (Lotus Bloom doesn't work) involves fewer pieces. In addition, all three of these combos require 0 cards on the field. As for using Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar to get infinite mana (to win with Goblin Cannon probably), you can combo off that way if it's your graveyard if Angel of Glory's Rise can get Treasure Hunter, but I'm not a fan of having to wait to pay the extra to get an altar.

thegigibeast, I agree with all the tier placements except Emrakul. Controlling a players turn can demolish a player's boardstate or just make them outright lose. (At the very least, you can run things liked Jinxed Idol to make sure controlling them is a guaranteed field wipe.) It more than makes up for the free extra turn. I also saw several neat ways to reuse her cast trigger within days of her beings spoiled, and there are a ton of self sacrificing colorless permanents to make her easier to cast. To be fair, she plays much differently than the other eldrazi titans, but that just means it's not really worthwhile to compare them to her.

Should be T4, not T5.

MagicalHacker, As amusing as those combos are, how does mono- get cards in the yard other than Altar of Dementia, Mesmeric Orb, and the one tutor that can search for them?

Grindstone, Millstone, Keening Stone, Whetwheel, Sands of Delirium, Grinding Station, Shriekhorn

some of them are better than others but they all work

sonnet666, while I agree that mono-white self-mill is nowhere near tier 2, I think it can be low tier three due to the following self-mill cards and then the following tutors after those:

• Altar of Dementia
• Cellar Door
• Charmed Pendant
• Codex Shredder
• Decimator Web
• Ghoulcaller's Bell
• Grindclock
• Grinding Station
• Grindstone
• Hair-Strung Koto
• Keening Stone
• Mesmeric Orb
• Millikin
• Millstone
• Sands of Delirium
• Shard of Broken Glass
• Shriekhorn
• Tower of Murmurs
• Whetstone
• Whetwheel
• Worry Beads
• Citanul Flute
• Kuldotha Forgemaster
• Mangara's Tome
• Planar Portal
• Ring of Three Wishes
• Skyship Weatherlight
• Tamiyo's Journal
• Enlightened Tutor
• Ranger of Eos

So a lot of those require a LOT of mana. Like, TONS. So, does white have enough ramp?

• Knight of the White Orchid
• Oath of Lieges
• Ancient Tomb
• Astral Cornucopia
• Blinkmoth Urn
• Burnished Hart
• Caged Sun
• Coalition Relic
• Coldsteel Heart
• Doubling Cube
• Dreamstone Hedron
• Druidic Satchel
• Everflowing Chalice
• Extraplanar Lens
• Fellwar Stone
• Gauntlet of Power
• Gilded Lotus
• Hedron Archive
• Honor-Worn Shaku
• Mana Crypt
• Marble Diamond
• Metalworker
• Mind Stone
• Mishra's Workshop
• Myriad Landscape
• Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
• Sisay's Ring
• Sol Ring
• Star Compass
• Surveyor's Scope
• Sword of the Animist
• Thought Vessel
• Thran Dynamo
• Ur-Golem's Eye
• Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, and Urza's Tower, especially when you have Weathered Wayfarer and Expedition Map
• Worn Powerstone

At the end of the day, I think it's silly to say that white cannot do this. While I would agree that it's not as broken as Zur the Enchanter or even as effective as a tier two general, I think there are definitely more than enough options to make this a decently effective infinite-combo deck.

Wow... I was actually MORE inclined to think this was playable before you listed cards.

If you were going to put cards like Millstone in, then this is tier 4 combo deck at best.

sonnet666, I guess I wasn't clear enough, because I don't think running all of the cards mentioned is best. There are a few I think are fantastic, but yeah Millstone is not one of those...

Maybe I wasn't being clear either:

Less than a third of those cards are commander playable.

"commander playable" :|

thats fucking vague

i mean, goblin guide is terrible in commander :\

sonnet666, commander playability is defined by if the card can be used effectively in a strategy. Well, maybe Inquisitor Exarch was never considered commander playable before today, but if it is THE card that makes a Bruna deck's infinite combo kill people, it becomes commander playable in that deck.

How exactly is new Olivia better than old Olivia?

TheDracogenius: Old Olivia is kind of slow. New Olivia is a discard outlet, so that you can reanimate creatures. It's not great, but that's why she's in tier 3.

Going to take a break from the description to talk about this: This is ridiculous.

Part 1

Since you decided to list almost every single self-mill card ever printed, even Millstone, I'll address every one of them here.

• Altar of Dementia: You won't have enough mana to cast a bunch of creatures then sac them. If you ever get there, you should've lost already. Not reliable at all.

• Cellar Door: 3 mana, every turn, mill one. On turn 80, you'll have pumped 240 mana into this thing to mill enough cards. Seems legit.

• Charmed Pendant: Comes out on turn 2ish, proceeds to mill 1 card per turn. Not going to work well enough to get a set of 3+ cards into your yard consistently.

• Codex Shredder: At this point, I'm just going to put this under all the 1-card per turn mill "engines:" It's 1 card per turn.

• Decimator Web: "Target opponent."

• Ghoulcaller's Bell: It's 1 card per turn.

• Grindclock: Waaaay too slow. By the time you get it up to 4-6 charge counters, someone comboed off, or someone dropped a Static Orb or Null Rod.

• Grinding Station: You won't have a steady enough stream of artifacts to mill yourself enough.

• Grindstone: The only way this could be playable ever is if it had Painter's Servant. Oh wait.

• Hair-Strung Koto: HAHAHAHAHAHA... no. On turn 3, your 2 creatures won't be milling at a fast enough rate.

• Keening Stone: Alright, starting on turn 3 (the Hermit Druid/Prossh/Sidisi turn), you're getting an artifact that mills for ~1. Alright, then what? What's the payoff? Oh, I see. Dumping all your mana into it so that you can get killed by a combo.

• Mesmeric Orb: I equate this to the least smelly piece of garbage. It'll probably end up milling 5ish cards per turn. Still pretty slow, but not completely unplayable. However, it has the downside of helping decks like Meren and Jarad power out their wincons (which are much, much faster than yours).

• Millikin: It's 1 card per turn.

• Millstone: Really?

• Sands of Delirium: It's a decent mill engine, if you do literally nothing else after you play it. I don't know, it might be fine, but it seems bad.

• Shard of Broken Glass: This seemed pretty comical to me. It relies on you having a creature who you value little enough to attack with, then hoping it doesn't get removed. Super fragile, and only 2 cards per turn.

• Shriekhorn: It's a 1-mana mill 6. No.

• Tower of Murmurs: I hope you don't seriously think that you can pull this off. It's super expensive, in the color that's worst for ramp, that requires 12 mana to do anything. It's awful.

• Whetstone: 3 mana per turn, to mill 2. No.

• Whetwheel: It's way too expensive to do anything. It's like Tower of Murmurs, but slightly more flexible.

• Worry Beads: It's 1 card per turn.
  
  Part 2

Alright, now we've seen all the "mill engines" that you outlined. Now, how many of them are not utter garbage? Let's make a list.

1. Mesmeric Orb

Yeah, that's it. Nothing else is remotely decent. This is worrying - in a self-mill deck, there's a total of one decent self-mill card that has any chance of milling enough cards. Now, for the tutors.

• Citanul Flute: Let's see which of your so-called mill engines this tutors - one of them. It's also one of the worst, fitting under the "It's 1 card per turn" category. Apart from that, it grabs... uh... Angel of Glory's Rise in case someone casts Nevermore on Bruna? Ah, seems playable: a TWELVE MANA TUTOR THAT TUTORS ONE CARD IN YOUR DECK.

• Kuldotha Forgemaster: Since your early-game artifacts are ramp, you're sacrificing your manabase to tutor one artifact. Could be good if you win on the spot, e.g. tutor Mesmeric Orb and Four-Horsemen your way to victory, but this is super unlikely.

• Mangara's Tome: What is this supposed to be? First of all, in a game, your 5 mana do-nothing artifact does, well, nothing. Then, hopefully, if you can keep it in play for three turns (keep in mind, most decks, even tier 3 stuff like Jhoira, would've won by now),

• Planar Portal: Ah, everyone's favorite 12-mana Demonic Tutor. Super playable. By the time you're casting this, you should've been killed/locked down.

• Ring of Three Wishes: See Planar Portal, replace "12-mana" with "10-mana."

• Skyship Weatherlight: Really?

• Tamiyo's Journal: At best, this is a 7-mana artifact that says "if this is on the battlefield next turn, then you get to tutor one thing." That's too expensive, too inconsistent, and too unreliable. If anyone has, say, Nature's Claim, you just wasted 7 mana.

• Enlightened Tutor: Finally! The one good tutor!

• Ranger of Eos: What exactly does this tutor? I can't seem to think of anything outside of maybe Weathered Wayfarer. If you got to 4 mana, Wayfarer's optimal time is over.

Alright, now we've seen all the "tutors" that you gave. Now, how many of them are maybe playable? Let's make a list.

1. Kuldotha Forgemaster

2. Enlightened Tutor

Well, that was slightly better than the abysmal "mill engines." Our engine package so far:

• Mesmeric Orb

• Kuldotha Forgemaster

• Enlightened Tutor

How consistent!

Part 3

You listed a lot of ramp spells, few of them playable.

• Knight of the White Orchid: WW cost, so it can't be cast off any of the colorless-producing artifacts. Finds... a plains. So, it's like a more restrictive Thought Vessel. Seems fine.

• Oath of Lieges: This card seems fine on the surface. However, it really isn't. Firstly, most decks run very few lands. Zur Doomsday, for example, runs 28-30. A mono-white deck, compensating for the lack of ramp, must run a lot more land. Most combo decks will run a lot of artifact-based and spell-based ramp, and less lands. This will be triggering for them more than you. It's paying 2 mana to help your opponents.

• Ancient Tomb: For this card and all cards like this, I'm just saying: "Staple."

• Astral Cornucopia: Costs 3 mana to produce 1. Costs 6 mana (already way too much) to produce 2. Unplayable.

• Blinkmoth Urn: You're in mono-white, with very few artifact tutors. Other people will get more out of this than you.

• Burnished Hart: Way too slow for any competitive game.

• Caged Sun: See Burnished Hart. (Control decks can run it because they slow down the game enough.)

• Coalition Relic: Staple. (Only in colors that have very little color-based ramp.)

• Coldsteel Heart: Staple.

• Doubling Cube: Doesn't do very well unless you have a lot of good ramp. White does not have a lot of good ramp.

• Dreamstone Hedron: Too expensive, and does too little.

• Druidic Satchel: 3 mana artifact that does nothing intially. Requires 2 extra mana to get a ~30% chance to get a land.

• Everflowing Chalice: Staple.

• Extraplanar Lens: Staple.

• Fellwar Stone: Staple.

• Gauntlet of Power: Might be too slow for combo list.

• Gilded Lotus: See Gauntlet of Power.

• Hedron Archive: Maybe. It seems okay.

• Honor-Worn Shaku: Too expensive and does too little.

• Mana Crypt: Staple.

• Marble Diamond: Staple.

• Metalworker: Not consistent enough in a deck that isn't artifact-centric.

• Mind Stone: Staple.

• Mishra's Workshop: First of all, you're not an artifact deck. This is like running it in Tasigur. Sure, Tas runs a bunch of artifact ramp, but he wouldn't benefit enough from a land that's a dead card some of the time.

• Myriad Landscape: Way too slow for competitive. Enters tapped, costs 2 to get 2 lands tapped. Just not fast enough for competitive.

• Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: If you're actually ramping with artifacts and lands, you won't have much devotion. It's just a colorless basic.

• Sisay's Ring: Worse Hedron Archive, which wasn't very good to begin with.

• Sol Ring: Staple.

• Star Compass: Not very good. Seems like a worse Coldsteel Heart.

• Surveyor's Scope: Since you're running all this land-based ramp, you're not going to find many lands with this. Probably 1 at most.

• Sword of the Animist: Same as Shard of Broken Glass; too slow, inconsistent, and unreliable.

• Thought Vessel: Staple.

• Thran Dynamo: Staple.

• Ur-Golem's Eye: See Sisay's Ring.

• Urza Lands: Takes 4 turns (if you play Wayfarer t1) to get 7 mana. Too slow, and if you don't have one specific card, they're wildly inconsistent.

• Worn Powerstone: Seems too slow.

That was a lot better (due to all the easy staples you listed). Let's make a list (excluding staples, should be obvious).

1. Knight of the White Orchid

The other 12 good cards are staples. That leaves you with 13 ramp cards. That's not enough to power mana-sinks (more like mana-bottomless-pits) like Keening Stone and Sands of Delirium.

Part 4

At the end of the day, I think it's silly that White cannot do this... in magical christmas land. It's inconsistent, easily disrupted, and above all, SLOW. In a format defined by speed and consistency, of which this deck has neither, this deck seems like it won't survive. I'd put it around low tier 4.



TL;DR: This deck is slow, inconsistent, and easily disrupted.

Sorry for the length.

Solid points. The repeated tutors are to tutor the individual cards that need to be milled rather than mill them, but it seems like we would get to a more reasonable conclusion if we talked about the metagame it would be equally matched rather than one it is unequally matched in.

Yes, it's too slow for tier one, but I still think its doable in a tier three settin. Looking at your analysis, yeah self-mill isn't going to cut it, so maybe a more-control oriented route will be needed.

"Commander playability is defined by if the card can be used effectively in a strategy. Well, maybe Inquisitor Exarch was never considered commander playable before today, but if it is THE card that makes a Bruna deck's infinite combo kill people, it becomes commander playable in that deck."

Except it's not. Because...

A) It's unnecessarily convoluted. Any sac loop on Altar of Dementia or Blasting Station is going to win you the game; you don't have to wait for an extra creature to get in your yard. And...

B) Being a combo piece is a terrible measure of a card's playability. It means that the card fits a specific niche and does nothing else. Especially if the card doesn't provide additional purpose when your not combo'ing. This is why the best combo decks run pieces that are multifunctional and advance your strategy all on their own (and why Grindstone + Painter's Servant is for newbs).

Leinahtan gets it.

Also, if you still think this is tier 3 material, I remind you that tier 3 also contains Chainer, Dementia Master, a powerhouse of a self-mill combo/control deck. Take a look at a sample decklist and tell me if you really think they're equal: Black Box Messiah.

DERPLINGSUPREME, You have a penchant for pointing out the obvious, kudos. Yes, Goblin Guide is not commander playable. No, I don't know why that's relevant.

I honestly think that the deck would be better if we forget about the combo and try to go for godstuff/value? Add more control and reanimation, and try to get Iona, Avacyn, Linvala... or any other relevant angel/human on the battlefield??? Wouldn't this already be better?

When I had origionally envisioned that glory's rise play I was envisioning it as a "cast first reanimate second" similar to how LSV played his G/B rite deck in standard.

Play the things, when they deal with the things, reanimate the things, then use altars to abuse all the things. (sac stuff to altars and then use that mana to cast Bruna again similar to prossh + food chain)

Also, just wondering why the Yisan primer doesn't have dryad arbor? T1 GSZ for dryad arbor is great, I'm suprised not to see it. Any idea why it's not?

Well, if we have value humans, then we want Angel of Glory's Rise, and if we want that, then we want one or more combos. Honestly, I think the third combo is the only one worth playing, and most of the pieces are good enough by themselves. Inquisitor Exarch and Changeling Hero (which is replacing Banisher Priest in the combo) are not the best, but worth it? I think so.

The first combo requires having an equipment subtheme, and the second requires a trinket subtheme. The third combo is purely humans/angels, right up Bruna's alley.

Also, sorry if my ideas have been less than insightful recently, I've been going through a slump... However, I have tried to be more open-minded than normal. shrug

Assuming it's not biased at all, it seems kinda scary that 8 of your example tier 1 lists are by the same guy.

T1 GSZ into Dryad Arbor is pretty ballsy. I mean I couldn't even count the times I had an opponent do this:

Swamp -> Sol Ring - > Chromatic Star -> exile Simian Spirit Guide -> Manamorphose -> Smallpox.

... Ok so that hasn't happened but it could! And that's why you never T1 Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor. Sure the opponent will go through 7 cards to do that but they also have a Sol Ring and you're sitting there with Yissan feeling bad.

(I'm not really sure how to commander anymore. I want to go back to 2013 please.)