With that logic, you never play turn 1 land and creature.

It's the literal same thing as t1 Forest > llanowar elves though and the deck runs plenty of those.

I mean yeah, you can't Yisan for arbor and it's not an elf but saying not to GSZ for it is like saying don't play a dork on T1.

kengiczar, I just think if it like this: do I really want a land that dies on the next board wipe or opens up the option to my opponents of making a spot removal spell that normally targets only creatures into one that can get rid of a land? Creature is the most fragile types, while land is the fifth fragile. (That's third from the bottom.)

Well the thing is, with the t1 GSZ play you aren't casting it so technically it's only losing a mana dork. I can see if you were playing it from hand but I've never had that come up in testing. More often than not it's t1 GSZ into dryad arbor then t2 Yisan. After that you don't really care.

Also, you can bounce dryad arbor with Scryb Ranger in response to mass removal.

It seems to me it's just as likely to draw GSZ before Arbor as it is to draw Arbor before GSZ. Then, add to that the possibility of both being in hand simultaneously voiding the interaction... It doesn't look that good. Is the advantage of being able to GSZ=0 worth the downside of getting it before GSZ?

When it enables a T2 Yisan? Absolutely

I always turn one GSZ into dryad arbor. Great ramp option.

I also use Lotus Petal, and Elvish Spirit Guide to help enable turn 2 Omnom, and Yisan.

Advantages:

• The tenth 1-drop mana dork

Disadvantages

• Running a card that is a more fragile land
• Not being able to GSZ it when you've already drawn it
• Losing a tutor from your hand

After playing this interaction many times, it became obvious the disadvantages outweigh the advantages in my tier 2-3 environment.

It has more than one advantage.

Dryad arbor is also very useful if your mana screwed or flooded with Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. Being able sac it to cards like Natural Order is also pretty nice.

I could list how it makes your 99-card deck instead a 98-card deck, but if we list all the insignificant advantages, we will be here all day.(Insignificant because GSZ does that anyways. Plus getting rid of a card you don't want to draw in any situation is evidence that the card has more disadvantages then advantages.)

At any rate, I think this classifies as another example of how cards that are necessary to make a deck tier 1 in a tier 1 environment can actually make a deck less likely to win in a tier 2.5 environment due to the fact that three other players can agree that you are public enemy number one. In those situations, I think it's foolish to say that people can't recognize cards/commanders that tip off that it has the highest chance of winning if ignored. Although, I will say that some of the tier one decks can occasionally resist constant interference from 3-4 tier 2-3 decks due to their build, but I know from experience that in a mixture of tier 1, 2, and 3 decks, tier 2 decks have the highest win rate in this environment.

I would say this is due to a number of reasons:

• A tier one commander gets more attention.
• Cards/interactions that are expensive or "more all in" (such as GSZ for Arbor, or Mana Crypt) also attract more attention
• Experience losing horribly to that deck in a 1v1 game (which happens in this type of environment) provides knowledge that the deck should be feared.

Even in a playgroup involving no intercommunication, these reasons (and possibly more) can lead to players making a decision in agreement if they are smart and observant.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear logical rebuttals, not statements to the effect of "that's dumb, not true, go home n00b."

Getting some commanders out more consistently earlier is really helpful. GSZ-Arbor is another way to do that. Lilbrudder also listed another reason. I love Natural Order saccing Dryad Arbor, and dropping something really big early (usually terrastodon)

I feel getting going the soonest is Green's best go in a game. It needs to out pace the opponents.

From experience, that line happened half the time, while the other half I drew Arbor. After that, I had more success after taking Arbor out.

Between explosive starts from GSZ and utility provided for sac shenanigans, Dryad Arbor is worth running in most G/Gx/Gxx decks.

MagicalHacker I have been running mono green, not sure if you are talking about multi color or not here. Omnath was my 2nd EDH deck, and I built Yisan shortly after he was released. They are the most played decks I have, and my experience is telling me that it is a strong play more often then not.

I use it in my Roon deck too, and it is more just decent instead of great. Still worth including I feel though.

Alright, here's what I hope sounds like a "logical rebuttal." Bear in mind that this is coming mostly from Yisan experience.

First of all, some things we should establish.

1. Dryad Arbor shouldn't be treated as a land. It's got summoning sickness, counts as a creature (Craterhoof), and dies to removal (not that I've seen anyone use removal on one). Going off of this, you shouldn't think that it's a land when you decide to mull or keep, you shouldn't play it turn 1, and you shouldn't keep a hand where this is your only land.

2. Very few people will ever use removal on Dryad Arbor, unless you play it like a land (e.g. as your first land drop).

3. Yisan uses almost every good way possible to get Yisan out turn 2. This is vitally important.

4. Green Sun's Zenith is a great card; it would be run in Yisan whether or not you ran Dryad Arbor.

Now, keep those in mind. This isn't about Dryad Arbor + GSZ, it's just about Dryad Arbor. I feel that Dryad Arbor is more Llanowar Elves than Forest. When I play Yisan, I imagine Arbor as a mana dork that I play when I have no lands in hand. However, if I didn't draw Arbor, playing GSZ for it is a great play that gets the all-imporant turn 2 Yisan.

Since you're trying to run every piece of acceleration possible, Dryad Arbor makes the cut. T1 GSZ into Arbor is a great play. It's like you playing Llanowar Elves, as Ohthenoises said. Now, I'll just add some counterpoints to what you said.

do I really want a land that dies on the next board wipe or opens up the option to my opponents of making a spot removal spell that normally targets only creatures into one that can get rid of a land?

No, Arbor isn't a land. If you kept a hand that forced you to play Arbor turn 1, you should've mulliganed. Dorks die to boardwipes and removal, so does Arbor.

Is the advantage of being able to GSZ=0 worth the downside of getting it before GSZ?

Yes. You can always just... play it from your hand, and the power of turn 2 Yisan is great. It's not like either is a dead card without the other, as both are potent and powerful.

Running a card that is a more fragile land

It's not, though. It's a free, but timing-restrictive, mana dork.

Not being able to GSZ it when you've already drawn it

Just GSZ for something else. It's not the end of the world.

Losing a tutor from your hand

This I don't get. Are you saying that you could've GSZ'd for something else? You won't really be GSZ'ing for this on turn 8, you'll be searching for something that affects the board.


Basically, Arbor is a great card. Early on (as in turn 1), you can GSZ for it, enabling a turn 2 Yisan. In the midgame, it's Quirion/Scryb Ranger bounce fodder. Later on, it's a mana dork and an extra Craterhoof creature. And the downsides? Uh... you don't get to play another card that would've taken its place? Yeah, Arbor is great.

So, I traded a bunch of useless $2-$40 cards in to vendors at SCG Worcester, and picked up a Chandelabra of Tawnos and a Timetwister.

Ive stuck the Timetwister into Teferi combo, but I can't decide if candelabra would be better in Azusa or Teferi. Thoughts?

I humbly submit my take on the, seemingly infamous, Azami for considderation :)

yer a Harry, wizard

Commander / EDH Winther

SCORE: 4 | 5 COMMENTS | 729 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS

Remember the discussion about Purphoros, God of the Forge? Me neither, but I think my recently finished decklist could be the example needed for it's tier 2 list:

Purphoros, God of the Forge: A BURNING Sensation?

Commander / EDH MagicalHacker

SCORE: 8 | 23 COMMENTS | 988 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS

If you don't think so, let me know how I can make it better ;D

A little late on this, but I agree with most of thegigibeast's rankings of the new legends, but I don't think Emrakul is tier 5. She's worse than the other eldrazi titans, but will be cheaper on balance and the repeatable mindslaver effect is really powerful in my opinion. Taking a player's turn and using that turn to kill someone else at the table while also depleting resources is no joke. Still not a great commander, but better than jank.

Bruna in tier 3 seems a tad strong (7 drop, white, bad and slow combo) and Grafwidow in tier 4 seems too low based strictly on power level (good color combo and infinite mana kill in the command zone), but as a starting point they're probably fine.

I am not convinced that the new Emrakul is weaker than newlamog. This may be due to my own ignorance so I hope to learn why I am mistaken. My experience with Mindslaver is that in terms of card advantage it usually gets rid of WAY more than 2 permanents on average in edh. The extra turn granted is irrelevant since you can cause massive destruction if you target the right player. Even in colorless Emmy will likely cost less than newlamog on average and that body is pretty badass. 2 shotting people easy.

I don't think new Emrakul is better than Newlamog. Exiling two permanents unconditionally is huge, plus Ulamog is indestructible and has an excellent attack trigger. Emrakul may occasionally have higher upside, but Ulamog is going to be more consistent game-to-game.

For our weekly Brewsday meetup, the cEDH subreddit made a Prime Speaker Zegana Foodchain build. Link.

It still needs some polishing though. If anyone knowledgeable in the format wants an easy way to get a deck they made on the Decklists dropdown, it would be fairly easy to make an optimized Zegana deck using this as a base. One immediate upgrade that can be made is to drop the land count by one (when tested, the deck was actually getting mana flooded fairly often).

yavimaya_eldred: I can't remember the link but I just read a pretty decent article where someone ran the numbers and Emrakul averages way more than the 2 for 1 Ulamog pumps out in a 1v1 environment. In multiplayer the average number of cards you can affect negatively increase exponentially. Now I understand exiling is huge and Ulamog has some other slight advantages, but I am thinking Emrakul's cast trigger will average at least a 4-5 to 1, whereas Ulamog is always 2 to 1. That immediate value and 2 turn clock are pretty big. Most the good removal in CEDH are instants so its not as like she can't protect herself either. I think alot of people are biased against the card because she is clearly inferior to her first iteration (ala Liliana). I definitely agree with others that tier 4 is where she belongs.