Why are you assuming a Mono-black deck has to be just a Reanimator or a Voltron deck? I belive you have not played a true mono-black deck, there is a range of possibilities that I can't even describe , I have seen so many times many Xiahou dun giving a response to big in-game problems totally turning games, Xiahou offers a recursion effect of any black CARD , not just a reanimator or a voltron capabilities. The hormanstuff is just an extra. Meren is awesome but she will never have that recursion theme with the cards you have already used. Putting one of the best mono-black generals in T4 is just wrong and playing a planeswalker as general , just don't. I have to excuse for my english since I am from italy and english is not my native tongue.

I can agree to Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed being bumped back down the Tier 4. That's where I originally had him placed, but people who run him made a case and had him upgraded.

His recursion ability is cute, but it's way too restrictive. It requires the player to sacrifice an already slightly overcosted creature, and it sends the returned card back to the hand. He's essentially a much weaker version of Eternal Witness in that regard, or even an insanely over-costed Regrowth that doesn't hit colorless spells. The psuedo-unblockable effect is nice, but as Jazzy said, black is fairly terrible for Voltron strategies. Rarely will you be able to set up anything shorter than a three turn clock for a single opponent with him, and it takes eons for him to attempt to kill an entire table.

Both abilities by themselves are for sure Tier 4 at best. Combined, they still don't allow him to stand up to a lot of the current Tier 3 decks, especially since there's negative synergy between them (no sense loading up a creature with auras and equipment only to sac him the following turn).

Poorly knowledge of the black color and cards. Making a voltron deck is just wrong and putting a card in T4 just because you think black = voltron is just wrong. Just as it is saying black is just reanimating. I belive you need to see more mono-black decks in action. As I said before black has a wide field of action most of it being 'control' in which Xiahou ability excels. I also see you only have 1 mono-colored deck and have been playing since Theros , which also makes me think you have a low understandment of how mono-colored decks run and how recursive they need to be. Again , it is wrong to put one of the most recursive black cards in T4.

Panzer, I wasn't saying black = Voltron. Quite the contrary; I was saying that monoblack really can't do Voltron, so Xiahou Dun's Horsemanship is mostly irrelevant.

Black isn't just reanimation, no. It's discard, reanimation and some strong ramp. There's also a lot of removal in black, but that usually comes alongside reanimation or discard themes. Black has other strong archetypes, but those are it's greatest strengths. Xiahou Dun isn't great for any of them.

Like Narej said, he's a 4 mana recursion effect, that then becomes 6 mana and then 8 mana. For a fairly weak recursion effect, that requires Xiahou Dun to be sacrificed. The fact that you have to sacrifice him for the recursion is also a very good point, as it does mean that like Narej said, loading him up with equipment and auras then becomes a waste because you have to sacrifice him to make use of his second ability.

And we most certainly should not go by who's the best commander for each colour combination, so saying he's the best commander for monoblack is irrelevant. If we use that logic, then we'll have to put a monowhite commander in tier 2 as well... and that's just... NOOOOO.

I know quite a bit about mono-black, and have played against and experimented with numerous mono-black commanders, including Xiahou Dun.Mono-black control is not viable at higher levels of play, as struggles to interact with artifacts, enchantments, and the stack itself. Some of the strongest combo decks in the format (Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, Enter the Infinite, Academy Rector) cannot even be touched by mono-black control under normal circumstances, making it rather weak as a deck archetype at a competitive level.

I repeatedly bring up reanimator in collusion with Xiahou Dun because A: it's the strategy that he best lends himself to, and B: reanimator combo is one of the color's most heavily used strategies. Chainer, Mikaeus, and many other mono-black commanders all revolve around graveyard interactions and recursion.

Xiahou Dun can obviously be used in decks not built around the two strategies I discussed, but the problem there is power. As I said, mono-black control is not a competitive archetype. Goodstuff is also extremely mediocre. Xiahou Dun doesn't lend himself to non-reanimator combo, and stax would be a waste of time with him. So, yes, there are other deck archetypes for mono black, but Xiahou Dun is not useful for any of them, and that's what we're discussing here: the best builds for him as a commander.

Resorting to insults just because you disagree with my points seems a bit childish.

Sidisi is the best mono black commander.

This discussion is what we were trying to avoid with talking about your own commanders. Xiahou is alright, and seems that tier 3 is a generous/correct spot for him. He is in no way tier 2 material. Since he is your commander, you have a special place for him there. That is why we do not make the case for our own.

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is the other monoblack in tier 2. He is there because half of his combo is in the commander.

A.I totally get your point but I DID NOT insult you in anyway (NarejED) I am sorry if you felt that way as I said english is not my native tongue. B.I do NOT own a Xiahou Dun commander. I use Mikaeus as General. But I got beaten last night by a Xiahou Dun in a Two Headed Giant tournament and he resolved just about absolutely everything in the table with just 3 turns of recursion.

Tier 3 description -- Average Tier. These commanders still do quite well in casual kitchen table matches, but they suffer from noticeable problems in higher levels of play. These decks rarely manage to win before turn 6, or can often be shut down by a single well-placed counterspell. They can still compete against tier 1 and 2 decks, but they require very favorable politics to win.

To me that defines that commander.

I thought that too until last night. Of course two multi-colored decks can beat a Mono-black and a Mono-green deck. But the amount of control that deck had is the main reasong why I started this conversation , no offense intended at anytime, I totally get the point of the tiers and of course a multi colored deck such as my Wydwen full Control deck can beat those , but that deck had such a ramp and recursive actions that the table was already being wiped at turn 3, Again turn 4 , and mana was not a problem. Two multi colored decks with very high budgets , I am talking above 1500$ because let's admit we all love magic, and we could not stand with a Triskelion and mikaeus turn 4. Indeed the deck was pretty expensive but that lead me to think why Xiahou , and that's why I am here.

Seems like a very small sample size for such a strong opinion. I have played against him a few times, but never built him. He does not have that extra push that would class him in tier 2 to me.

Mono color really is a disadvantage as I am sure you know. I even think there are too many of them listed in tier 2 right now.

"Poorly knowledge of the black color and cards."

"I believe you need to see more mono-black decks in action."

"... only have 1 mono-colored deck"

"...Have (only) been playing since Theros"

"You have a low understanding of how mono-colored decks run"

You basically spent the entire post trying to undermine my experience rather than submit valid arguments, but that's a discussion for another time. It's good to know you didn't intend to be rude at least.

To keep this post from being labeled spam...

Tier 3 reocmmendations:

Akroma, Angel of Fury --> Tier 4. Like her white counterpart (who is currently in Tier 4), she's much too expensive to cast, and her abilities, while numerous, aren't very useful in EDH. Typically she'll be built as a Voltron commander, but by the time a mono-red deck manages to cast her, most optimized Tier 3 decks will have won.

Avacyn, Angel of Hope --> Tier 4. Her ability is quite powerful, but, again, the casting cost is just too restrictive. Mono-white is arguably the single worst color for ramping, making it extremely difficult to cast her before turn 5 consistently.

Borborygmos Enraged --> Tier 4. First off, he requires a hefty mana investment to cast. Green may be notirously good at ramping, but even it takes several turns to squeeze out (4)RRGG. From there, things only get worse, as his abilities aren't terribly relevant. Typically there won't be any land in hand by the time resolves, meaning he needs a haste enable just to get any mileage out of his ability the same turn he's cast. At best, he manages to kill off a utility creature or two every turn at the cost of sacrificing mana growth. At worst, he's an over-costed beat stick.

Bosh, Iron Golem --> Tier 4. 8 mana casting cost. He then requires 4 mana and a slew of disposable artifacts for an ability that rarely does more than kill off utility creatures. There are a few ways to win using infinite combos, but they often require 4 or more pieces besides Bosh himself to assemble, making them somewhat irrelevant.

Crovax, Ascendant Hero --> Tier 4. He's not quite strictly worse than Elesh Norn, but he's very, very close. Norn costs 1 more to cast and can't be bounced to hand, but she grants a larger buff, and doesn't help opponents running who are white creatures. She's significantly more powerful.

Hazezon Tamar --> Tier 4. 7 mana for a 2/4 and a handful of tokens in one of the worst color combinations for sac shenanigans.

I will hopefully have a chance to continue re-combing Tier 3 later this week.

This should make the case for Sharuum, and Prossh at the same time.

Your in a 4 man pod playing your best Deck, someone is playing Kaalia, another Prossh, and the last Sharuum. Who demands the most respect in the first 3-4 turns.Prossh needs as much if not more than Sharuum to win and doesn't give the overall protection that Blue has to offer. Sharuum gets also all of the time here, no matter what scenario I run in my head it's Sharuum. Basically if Sharuum goes, so does Prossh. Sharuum even has access to combo's that the other Esper generals don't. Even has some built in recursion that Oloro, nor Zur does not.

You Either need a total rework of Tiers 1 and 2 or make a 1.5. Because Xeganos and Sharuum are not equal

Then we would have to come up with a list of top to bottom. I think the tiers is much easier to deal with. In every tier you will find commanders that would be considered towards the top, and those considered towards the bottom.

@Lorderos23: Prossh for sure demands the most attention in that scenario.

Prossh needs the same number of combo pieces to go off as Sharuum, true, but he has a lot more redundancy (some lists run as many as 10 finishers), and the main combo piece (Food Chain) actually fuels the rest of the combo, allowing you to sacrifice mana dorks and utility creatures to cast Prossh, then cast one of the 5+ creature combo pieces from hand with excess mana all in a single turn. Prossh can go off fairly consistently on turn 3, with turn 2 wins being common thanks to Orcish Lumberjack and other brutally fast ramp. It's almost impossible for Sharuum to combo off that fast. Prossh is also more potent by himself as a backup win condition. Xenagos, God of Revels -> Prossh takes out an opponent the same turn he's cast. Temur Battle Rage and Tainted Strike yield similar results.

Sharuum does indeed have access to combos that Zur and Oloro do not, but not GOOD ones. Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, 'Omni-Rector', and to a lesser extent even 'Enter the Lab Man' are all much stronger in Esper than Sharuum's Sculpting Steel combo, so it becomes somewhat irrelevant.

So, much faster, more consistent kills coupled with better backup strategies clearly prove Prossh to be on a level above Sharuum. I will agree that she doesn't belong on the same tier as Xenagos though. I recently made a post suggesting that he, along with a few other current Tier 2 commanders, be moved down. The list should be updated fairly soon. But, as Didgeridooda said, there will always be some power difference within the tiers. All we can do is try to draw the cutoff lines as fairly as possible.

Thanks for the input!

We will just have to agree to disagree there.

From my experience Prossh is slower and less troublesome than Sharuum earlier, but harder later (after turn 5 or 6). It could also be we see wildly different lists on both ends. The few Prossh players around here aren't very good and the Sharuum players are extremely good and have extremely well tuned decks.

My experience maybe very skewed in this as well since I play Kaaliageddon and just blow Prossh's lands to hell and Sharuum just ignores this and runs on Artifact mana.

Sharuum always gets Master of Cruelties as Prossh flails around trying to make mana.

Can you link me a Prossh list to comb-over?

Here you go. This is the one that I tune regularly. I've been focusing more on other decks recently, so there may be a few upgrades to be made. It should be at somewhere around 97% maximum Prossh efficiency though.

Live long and Prosshper

Darien, King of Kjeldor could be a tier 3 commander you can do funny shenanigan's with his ability. ragnar should be tier five. thx

Ragnar is suboptimal but not garbage. He's a cheap general and his ability, while overcosted, can protect creature combos in a color combination that has a lot of them. Tier four is where he belongs.

Jazzyboy: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief isn't too bad as vultron. She controls the board and buffs herself. It's possible. (Disclaimer: I have a so-so Drana deck)

I'm curious to hear peoples opinions on Eight-and-a-Half-Tails being a tier 3. Honestly I think he's at least on the edge of Tier 2 and would be curious to hear reasons why he would be kept in 3. Is this just due to the problems associated with playing mono-white in EDH. I ask because have faced builds of him as an equipment voltron with the rest of the deck just dedicated to shutting down the opponents deck and found him consistently pretty frustrating to deal with (even against my better decks)..

I get that his ability is often expensive but the decks I have seen will (often) quickly tutor for a Sword of Feast and Famine as their first equipment to make up for that (mana rocks are also a great solution to this). Further he is a perpetual fog in combination with Circle of Protection: White which is also easy to tutor for in white. On top of that he's very easy to cast.. I suppose the lack of ramp makes him slightly slower but not by much and once he get's going there's not much you can do to stop him.

Any thoughts?

At irisfibers: I'll try to answer why Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is Tier 3.

First, as you mentioned, mono white isn't good in EDH. It suffers from severe issues in drawing, tutoring, ramping, and stack interactions. Most agree that it and mono red are closely tied as the worst color identities in EDH.

Second, pure Voltron isn't extremely viable in multiplayer EDH. There are currently only two strict Voltron commanders in Tier 2 (Uril The Mist Stalker and Bruna, Light of Alabaster. Both of them have equal or better protection than Tails, have better color identities, and almost always one-shot an opponent the turn after they're cast. Tails isn't anywhere close to that fast, even when he manages to resolve a Stonehewer Giant on turn three. Even some of the best EaaHT Voltron builds take upwards of ten turns to kill three opponents. They can play a play a mediocre control game with Wraths and targeted removal to slow certain opponents down, but they have difficulty dealing with the majority of fast combo builds.

At NarejED: Yeah that makes sense (about what I figured) mono-white is hard to play well. I've seem some pretty quick kills with him but you're right those tend to be god-hands (2nd turn tails, third turn Ajani, fourth turn Elspeth, fifth turn lethal) and the exception rather than the norm.

irisfibers: The Eight-Tails deck I've played against was decked out with the Swords cycle, Jitte, Dark Depths etc. But nothing it did was super impactful on the game. Sure it protected itself alright but there wasn't anything threatening about Eight-Tails and the other stuff was damage not commander etc.