hosshughes: Narset, Arcum, Damia, Azami, and Sharuum were all at one time tier one. Up until recently they were considered among the best generals in the format. However, over time these generals/ strategies have become obsolete to an extent. Either they require too many suboptimal cards in the 99 to work, they are overly linear/dependent on the general, their win cons are too inefficient, or new generals have been printed that completely outclass them.

I don't think Arcum and Narsets demotion is a matter of opinion rather than they just aren't tier 1 material anymore. Take Sidisi, Brood Tyrant for example, which is generally considered the 5th best BUG general behind Damia, Mimeoplasm, Tasigur, and now Leo. A combo deck with her as the pilot can average goldfish victories in the 3's with occassional counterspell backup, because she has the best tutors and mana acceleration in her color identity and at least 5 overlapping mana efficient, easy to assemble win conditions (colorless heavy 4-6 mana 2 card combos). If you stop one combo, she can easily win with another the following turn. If you stop Arcum or Narset they are so focused they are a nonfactor the rest of the game, and they don't have nearly as many tools to recover.

On that note, can we please update the SBT list. There is no reason for any optimized sidisi deck to use Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb when she can win with Food Chain. Food Chain + Eternal Scourge is a superior combo in almost every way.

Lets focuson what really matteres:

There are 654 legendary creatues and the list only has 620!

Even when you account for banned commanders it's clear that some have been Neglected!

Akki Lavarunner / Tok-Tok, Volcano Born Check out the Oracle text here. There is absolutely nothing that needed to be changed which can only mean WotC wanted people to refer to this card as an object based on the legendary half.

Cunning Bandit / Azamuki, Treachery Incarnate Same thing as Akki Lavarunner.

Budoka Gardener / Dokai, Weaver of Life

Budoka Pupil / Ichiga, Who Topples Oaks

I know all about the whole "the unflipped card has to be blah blah blah" arguement but again check out the pages. The "Oracle" text is the exact same as the "printed" text only they just use half of the card for the oracle text. They treat the card as if the unflipped portion doesn't exist no matter which half of the card you navigate to in the DB. Furthermore they give the "flipped" part a mana cost so that you can cast it directly.

The cards still suck but hey it's something.

what.

I'm confused.

kengiczar - What you are saying that the non-legendary-->legendary flip cards are legal as commanders, which they are not. Gatherer is not primed for EDH. Flip cards (and other weirdly formatted cards) are difficult to program into Gatherer, so what you are pointing out is simply a mistake on WotC's side, not an insinuation of Legendary status.

Akki Lavarunner : http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=78694

Tok-Tok, Volcano Born: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=78694&part=Tok-Tok%2c+Volcano+Born

merrowMania - I would accept your claim on technical grounds except we have two different web-pages and it's also really not hard at all to make a webpage or edit it if you know what you're doing.

Both webpages have the exact same oracle text. We already know that a cards oracle text page replaces it's original printing completely. Notice how when you look up either half of the card you get the same result for the oracle text. In short WotC is saying all of those cards you thought were Akki Lavarunner are actually Tok-Tok, Volcano Borns that cost . The entire "flip" concept has been removed from these cards according to their oracle text.

This also doesn't interfere with the Erayo ban. It does interfere with the creatures that turn into Legendary enchantments though for people whose playgroups previously allowed them.

Gatherer is (IMO) a horrible site that is difficult to navigate, filter, and/or interpret anything from. You would be better off using magiccards.info (though they still need to update past SOI).

From Magiccards.info:
Akki Lavarunner
Tok-Tok

Magiccard.info uses Gatherer as the source of its information, though it only updates older information if there is an Oracle change (ie from the judge committee and Matt Tabak).

Eh I'm going to use the website that updates when WotC employees update it with my playgroup. The other site doesn't take into account that WotC can change cards without announcing it if they feel like it.

Also note that the "printed text" portion of the last two links I posted is perfectly able to convey the original effects of the card. That could have easily been copied over but it was apparently decided that the oracle text should be something else even though any WotC employee should have known the ramifications of doing that. This leads me to think it was intentional rather then just laziness.

Simply put they are not legends until they flip. Period.

They CLEARLY show that the base unflipped form is nonlegendary on the card.

"They CLEARLY show that the base unflipped form is nonlegendary on the card." - You CLEARLY don't seem to understand that what is printed on a card is ignored when the gatherer database is different.

Again it's not an issue of the webpage being hard to template because they already did it on the "printed" portion. There is evidence that they purposefully formatted the oracle portion the way that they did. I am not arguing that the first half is legendary I am arguing that the entire card has nothing to do with what's printed on the paper card but what is shown on the "oracle" portion.

WotC could update Prossh, Skyraider of Kher's name to "Jellyfish McWaglut-Goo" and his text to say "Rustlin Jimmy since 1985" and that is what hisname would be and he would effectively lose his abilities. That's the way the gatherer works.

From the comprehensive rules:

709.2. In every zone other than the battlefield, and also on the battlefield before the permanent flips, aflip card has only the normal characteristics of the card. Once a permanent is flipped, its normalname, text box, type line, power, and toughness dont apply and the alternative versions of thosecharacteristics apply instead.Example: Akki Lavarunner is a nonlegendary creature that flips into a legendary creaturenamed Tok-Tok, Volcano Born. An effect that says search your library for a legendarycard cant find this flip card. An effect that says legendary creatures get +2/+2 doesntaffect Akki Lavarunner, but it does affect Tok-Tok.

Comprehensive rules > Oracle.

Also, the oracle text you keep linking is only for one half of the card not both so.....

Chances are they just missed it. Gatherer isn't perfect, I've seen countless errors on the site over the years. It's likely that someone missed putting the normal side on there.

I'd say that's a checkmate.

@ Ohthenoises - "Comprehensive rules > Oracle."

WRONG:

"108. Cards108.1. Use the Oracle card reference when determining a cards wording. A cards Oracle text can be found using the Gatherer card database at Gatherer.Wizards.com"

The official rules (in reference to Cards in general) say to use the Oracle text. Might want to ctrl+f "Oracle" next time.

WELL I guess you're right in the sense that the officail rules say to use the oracle over whatever else they have.

Here's the thing about oracle. It's the same as if you were holding a physical card and erased everything then wrote the orcale text on it and WotC sanctioned it for tournaments. For these two cards going by the oracle text they aren't even flip cards anymore. They are however cards that are affected by Oracle as per the official rules.

I don't think you're correct. I think you misunderstand the meaning behind the text you quoted.

Who the HELL pissed in your cheerios this morning? seriously? You are flat wrong man.

"cards wording" as in the way a card is worded, not "hey lets leave out this whole half of the card" The oracle you keep clinging to is MISSING half the card. Seriously. How hard is that to understand? This isn't a commander thing this is a "submit a bug report" thing.

I mean I think I have the rules understanding of a L2 judge at least. Assuming that I don't know how gatherer works is insulting.

Also, the "printed vs oracle" thing is used for slight tweaks of wording not changes to the way a card fundamentally works. If that were the case they would have changed Ice Cauldron or Chains of Mephistopheles YEARS ago.

e.g. Marath, Will of the Wild doesn't have "x can't be 0" in his text. They meant it to they just forgot and had to errata it simple as that.

Oh this was my source: http://media.wizards.com/2016/docs/MagicCompRules_CN2_Update_20160826.txt

""cards wording" as in the way a card is worded, not "hey lets leave out this whole half of the card" The oracle you keep clinging to is MISSING half the card."

I am well aware that half the card is missing. That is most of what my point is built upon.

Sure, I'll source too Link

That doesn't make it automatically a legendary card, that means that someone screwed up at data entry.

Also note that Oracle text differs from Errata text in the sense that it doesn't change the functionality of the card.

Flip cards can't be used as Commanders unless they are considered Legendary pre flip from what I understand.

I'm actually not upset at all. I am carrying this argument out to it's logical conclusion exploring every avenue of approach possible before I retire it. Anyways I know that oracle is used for small text updates or updated when changes happen on reprints. What I am supposing is that WotC did intentionally leave off half the card and that they will make major changes to cards without reprinting them or announcing it whenever they feel like it.

Also Oracle text should be considered something that encompasses functional changes and wording changes:

"From the official Oracle web page: The Oracle card reference lists the text of every Magic: The Gathering card, including rulings, errata, and all functional changes. The card entry listed in these sets take precedence over any previous rulings and errata."

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/power-level-errata-b-gone-2006-07-14

They have announced (in one form or another) every change made, from minor to major. You're incorrect again. Leaving out half a card makes no sense.

709.2. In every zone other than the battlefield, and also on the battlefield before the permanent flips, a flip card has only the normal characteristics of the card. Once a permanent is flipped, its normal name, text box, type line, power, and toughness don't apply and the alternative versions of those characteristics apply instead.Example: Akki Lavarunner is a nonlegendary creature that flips into a legendary creature named Tok-Tok, Volcano Born. An effect that says "search your library for a legendary card" can't find this flip card. An effect that says "legendary creatures get +2/+2" doesn't affect Akki Lavarunner, but it does affect Tok-Tok.

If it's not a legendary creature outside of the battlefield (IE in the commander zone), it can't be your commander. Very simple.

kengiczar - We have heard your argument, and we do not accept it. You may believe whatever you want, and play with those rules, and we will play with that we believe to be correct. We have no intention of honoring the literal errata on Gatherer you pointed out and would kindly appreciate it if you would respect our decision.

To the rest of the people involved in this discussion: if you disagree with anything that I stated (after all, I used the term 'we'), I apologize.

Here's the thing. There are multiple points to be made as to why this drastic change may have been intentional and there is exactly zero evidence to show it is a mistake that has not been refuted by WotC's own policies. Is it a mistake? Most probable but we can't say for sure. So in light of that I say WotC should be innocent until proven guilty and we should treat the flip cards as the oracle text is displayed in gatherer.

Again oracle encompasses errata. They are separate but oracle supersedes errata and the official rules say to use the oracle. Anyone is completely justified in using the oracle text as it's printed even if it is a mistake.

Again oracle supersedes the official rules according to the official rules.

I do not expect the world to change with me here I am just going through the exercise.

Last thing about it: Thank you merrowMania for showing respect towards me. I appreciate it and will do my same the best. This last post was started before I saw yours.