SwaggyMcSwagglepants Sorry man you just came in at a bad time. It's generally pretty polite discussion normally. Hard to believe that exists in the internet I know but it really is.

I've engaged in more than my fair share of verbal sparring on this deck list, but let's keep in mind that we should be discussing the relative merits of Commanders. We got more than a little off track this morning. A person can be wrong and stubborn and not be a troll. My take on the whole conversation was that it was an attempt at a joke that got way out of hand. Let's keep the nerd rage within appropriate limits.

thegigibeast Hey I know it had been something like a day since the last comment clean up, but it might not be a bad idea to do another just to put this mess behind us.

Amen. TappedOut is supposed to be a place to have intellectual discussions about the game we love, Magic. I'm not one for formality, but that above, from both sides, degenerated really fast. One person tried to point out a fault, but did so in a way that could easily be misinterpreted or be considered aggravating by some people. Some people tried to reason why there was not fault, either reasonably, or unreasonably. The fact that some people said they fight trolling with trolling is unacceptable. Do not stoop to their level. If you think someone is trolling, don't troll back. It makes you look even worse than the supposed troll.

In the future, if there is an issue we would like to point out, please do so in a calm and respectable fashion. If you need to argue that issue, please do so in a cam and respectable fashion. If someone is being less than that, be calm and respectable. Graceful professionalism is not only a way people respect being addressed, its the best way to conduct arguments.

I might even get yelled at for trying to encourage this. Whatever. I can handle shit. I'm happy being the bigger man. Lets just make TappedOut a better place, y'know? This aint reddit, for Gods sake.

A comment reset seems like a good idea. I'm not sure if my comments took it too far or not, but if so I do formally apologize.

how can someone with swag in their name twice be so reasonable. get off my site you anomaly. in that exchange, i got quite rude(and regret nothing). but it is good to know there are still nice peeps on the web though. good shit.

Do we have a working deck list for Leovold? And are we decided that Doomsday is the best shell?

Doomsday seems best TBH

Another question about Leo is how many howling mine effects do we use?

Rites of Flourishing seems too good not to add but....

I've been working on it ever since it was spoiled. I'm pretty convinced that Doomsday is the best shell. There's been some argument that storm is the best archetype, but I think that is misguided. Leo combines so well with one drop mana dorks and wheels that it makes almost no sense to do otherwise. Hermit Druid seems seems to be fairly strong as well.

I've never really liked hermit Druid builds due to their more fragile land bases. Back to Basics, Blood Moon and other nonbasic land hate really just wreck them. It makes me wonder if Wave of Vitriol would work in my Yisan deck just for funsies.

I can't tell you how many times I've Gambled for Blood Moon and T2ed it and the Druid player just scoops.

However I know in competitive circles things may be different, my meta is only competicasual after all (tier 1-3 decks are represented)

Lilbrudder What would you substitute the Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal with? I'm not opposed to picking up an LED or Mox Diamond as they're used in other formats, but I don't want to buy EDH only cards, and would like some suggestions.

Edit: Don't want to buy expensive edh only cards.

Oh hey! Thanks for the shout-out AsykoSkwrl. I certainly could be wrong but I don't see the need for more than Anvil of Bogardan as the everyone gets cards effect as it locks people out of thier hand once they get down to top deck mode. With the always immiment threat of mass hand destruction surrounding Leo all opponents will be committed to keeping him off the table. You don't want to reward them by giving them extra cards if they manage the feat. The good 3-4 wheels, Ad Nauseam, Sylvan Library, Necropotence and Teferi's Puzzle Box gives boatloads of card advantage.

Dark Petition is pretty solid alongside DD and Necropotence and Perplex has its merits as a budget alternative. They just got cut in my build, but there are no great alternatives. I also think the argument could be made for Tainted Pact if you go for Hermit Druid

After a long hiatus, I'm back! I've read all the comments, and a lot of questions and suggestions get repeated a lot. I decided to write this stuff. If I did the formatting correctly, you should be able to copy and paste it directly into the description. (Just be careful with accordion blocks, you may need to delete ===accordion and ===endaccordion.) Other than that, enjoy!

===accordion
===panel:FAQ and Common Misconceptions

**FAQ**

_"Why isn't x commander placed higher/lower?_

Check below, in "Commonly Suggested or Questioned Commanders. 9 times out of 10, I've already answered that question. Otherwise, just ask! We're pretty nice here, probably, and will answer your question pretty quickly. 

_"What is the best/worst color/color combination?"_

Generally Blue and Green are the best, with BUG being the best color combination. That's why 5/6 of the BUG generals are either tier 1 or 2. BUG's combination of cheap combo protection, tutors, and ramp makes for ridiculously powerful decks. Additionally, mono-red and RW are pretty bad color combinations. You generally won't see one of them that high up. Mono-white is just awful, with very few redeeming qualities.

_"My question isn't mentioned anywhere!"

Just ask. Seriously, a lot of us are more than willing to help you. Most of us have quite a bit of experience in this format, and odds are, your question will be answered. 

_"Why is the FAQ so small?"

We're still updating it! Ask a question, and if it's common, it'll probably be added to the FAQ!

**Common Misconceptions**

_Hermit Druid is the best deck in the format, and all the other decks are slower._

No. Hermit Druid is a nice deck, but not nearly the best. People learn to kill the Druid, exile it, and there's usually no backup plan if [[Dread Return]] is removed with a timely [[Tormod's Crypt]]. Generally the only other plan is to flashback [[Memory's Journey]], getting [[Pull from Eternity]] and hoping not to die. Generally Food Chain Prossh and Grixis Storm are the fastest decks.

_Voltron decks like [[Rafiq of the Many]] can dominate a table._

The problem with voltron decks is that you have to kill 3 players. Assuming commmander damage, that's 63 life points to kill, while they're all trying to combo off and drop locks. Voltron decks are easy to counter and generally are slower than combo or stax decks.

_x commander that's highly placed will always work in every meta / My meta deck should be tier 1._

It's important to note that every meta is different. Personal builds may be suboptimal based on what your meta is like. For example, in my meta, there's a [[Thraximundar]] deck and a [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] deck. Therefore, I run [[Tajuru Preserver]] to combat those decks. However, in your meta, you likely won't need to fight sacrifice-based decks. Therefore, you won't run that card. Additionally, some decks work better in some metas than others. If a meta is based entirely on boardstate and mono-black decks that have trouble interacting with the stack, maybe Grixis Storm will be nice. If everyone is running spellslinger decks, you might want to bring Ruric Thar. My point is, just because one deck is high up doesn't mean that it'll always work. Remember that metagames must be taken into account before blindly selecting a deck. 

===endpanel

===panel:Commonly Suggested or Questioned Commanders

**Introduction**

I made this list and its explanations because people consistently suggest the same commanders over and over, without reading previous explanations. This will clear up uncertainty surrounding seemingly misplaced commanders like Jeleva or Geist.

**Tier One**

[[Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge]]

It's incorrectly assumed that Jeleva is the centerpiece of the deck. Many casual Jeleva decks run expensive spells like [[Enter the Infinite]] to abuse her ability. However, in competitive EDH, Jeleva heads one of the most potent decks around, Grixis Storm. Probably one of the best decks in the format, Grixis Storm is almost unrivaled in speed, and its colors allow for quick turn 3-5 wins off of the busted [[Ad Nauseam]]. When you see Jeleva discussed, just assume that it's Grixis Storm. 

[[Scion of the Ur-Dragon]]

Scion is used as another placeholder for generally any 5c Combo list. This ranges from the famous [[Hermit Druid]] to Flash Rector. Again, the general is rarely cast, and only then as a infinite mana sink with [[Buried Alive]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius]].

[[Teferi, Temporal Archmage]]

Teferi is the head of one of the best stax decks in the format. His -1 ability allows you to escape your own locks, and keep opponents suffering through [[Stasis]]. Finally, when your opponents are miserable and you have enough mana, you go infinite with him and [[The Chain Veil]].

**Tier Two**

[[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]]

Used as a Mardu stax general. The color combination is nice, and she's used because there isn't a better Mardu stax general. 

[[Arcum Dagsson]]

Typically a bogeyman of casual tables, Arcum just isn't that strong anymore. People have learned his [[Myr Turbine]] engine, and due to how slow the deck is, you can see the Lattice + Disk + Forge combo coming from a mile away. A simple [[Praetor's Grasp]] can remove his potency, and any removal against your key pieces is hard to cope with. Additionally, the deck just isn't fast enough for tier 1. 

[[Azami, Lady of Scrolls]]

Azami is another bogeyman of casual tables. She typically is run with a bunch of wizards, and is a hard control deck that wins through [[Mind over Matter]]. However, she suffers from the problem that all control decks have. In a multiplayer format, 1-for-1 counters and removal are inherent card disadvantage. In fact, the term 1-for-1 is a misnomer, as it should be 1-for-1/3. This makes it hard for any control deck to compete, as your card disadvantage is often too much to overcome. Counterspells don't work too well in a place where you have to pick whether you'll counter Yisan's [[Craterhoof Behemoth]], Zur's [[Ad Nauseam]], or Animar's [[Ancestral Statue]]. 

[[Daretti, Scrap Savant]]

Daretti was a commander that was hit _very_ hard by the mulligan change. Since much of red's acceleration is just 1-shot (think [[Rite of Flame]]), the deck relied on Partial Paris to land an early Daretti. Now that Vancouver has taken over the format, the deck can really only get a turn 4 Daretti consistently. The deck liked to run very few lands; that doesn't work too well now. Daretti's just too slow in this format.

[[General Tazri]]

He's the head of a unique 5c [[Food Chain]] deck. The deck runs the [[Food Chain]] + [[Misthollow Griffin]] / [[Eternal Scourge]] combo, then you can sac Tazri to [[Food Chain]] infintely to get something like [[Kalastria Healer]] and make your opponents lose infinite life. It's actually really fast, averaging turn 3-5 wins. He might move up later.

[[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]]

Mono-blue [[High Tide]]. It's really good. See the decklist in the description for more information.

[[Jhoira of the Ghitu]]

Another bogeyman. The problem with Jhoira is that her ability will get your big spells onto the battlefield at turn 7 on average. By then, faster decks have already won. She's in tier 2 at the time of writing this, but she may move down to tier 3 later.

**[[user:thegigibeast]], if Jhoira moves down, remember to update this.**

[[Kaalia of the Vast]]

While the colors are great for aggro in a 20-life format, this is more of a 120-life format (3 opponents * 40 life each). Aggro decks like Kaalia suffer heavily, and can really only dominate at casual tables lacking in spot removal. In competitive tables, if Kaalia hits the table, you can bet that every [[Beast Within]] and [[Swords to Plowshares]] will be heading her way.

[[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]]

Don't worry, he'll move up soon.

**[[user:thegigibeast]], when Leovold moves up, remember to update this.**

[[Narset, Enlightened Master]]

Similarly to Daretti, Narset was hit pretty hard when the new mulligans were instituted. She has trouble getting out on turn 3 like she used to. While she almost always kills people when she hits, the Vancouver mulligan brought a new "metagame" of midrangey decks like Yisan (<3), which usually run a platoon of creatures that can block and kill Narset.

[[Nin, the Pain Artist]]

Nin's basically the UR artifact combo general until WOTC PRINTS AN ACTUAL UR ARTIFACT COMMANDER. She's used as an infinite mana sink when you combo off. 

[[Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind]]

The combo is kind of expensive, and it's very easy to disrupt. It also has a heavy colored mana cost, so the combo is hard to ramp out early with [[Mana Crypt]] etc.

[[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]

Rienuaa's deck is pretty powerful. Green and White have some of the fastest ramp capabilities in the game, and can quickly tutor and play expensive (but castable in this deck) combos like [[Mirror Entity]] + [[Wirewood Symbiote]] + [[Priest of Titania]], or any big mana engine and [[Umbral Mantle]] / [[Sword of the Paruns]] / [[Staff of Domination]]. (The second one can't be tutored, but is way cheaper.)

[[Sliver Queen]]

Basically the same story as Scion, except instead of [[Buried Alive]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius]] you have [[Mana Echoes]] for infinite colorless mana and slivers.

**Tier 3 and below**

[[Geist of Saint Traft]]

While placing high on French tournaments, he's basically useless in multiplayer. He's basically a 6/2 with hexproof for 3. That really doesn't do anything when your opponents have 40 each and a bunch of chump blockers. A better option would be [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] who at least can get some interesting synergies with [[Eldrazi Conscription]] and the like.

[[Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]]

Mono-black isn't a great color combination. Additionally, putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't typically work. Skittles is nice, and can hit an unsuspecting opponent for 4 poison immediately, but the expensive cost coupled with the weakeness of a creature-based strategy that isn't green doesn't make for a happy outcome. It's still fine, and could tear up a few casual tables, but at a higher level, the deck can't hope to compete. 

[[Memnarch]]

Memnarch is another pubstomp commander. He does nothing until you either have a big boardstate or infinite mana. As a control general, you run out of cards way to quickly. As a combo general, [[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]] is pretty superior. He's just too clunky to compete. 

===endpanel
===endaccordion

Other notes:

• Tazri deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/food-chain-tazri/

• Zegana deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/cedh-brew-16-food-chain-zegana/

• I agree that Dralnu should move up to tier 3. While he's really, really strong, I've had unpleasant experiences of being blown out by Blasphemous Act or Earthquake.

• I think that we should change the rule about not discussing your own commanders. While it's been effective at keeping out personal bias, it also restricts people from answering questions. I think that it should be changed to something like "Don't suggest that your commander be moved up, but you can discuss it." Maybe more people can discuss it, but it seems unnecessary to me.

Well, I just wrote ~1860 words on EDH. I guess you wont need a comment reset now, everything else is buried! I guess thats a good thing.

So Leinahtan, you say "Used as a Mardu stax general. The color combination is nice, and she's used because there isn't a better Mardu stax general." in reference to Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. What are your thoughts on Marchessa taking her place? Draw engine is good, tokens if you can't draw seems also good. Seems to me like she does more than Alesha for that deck.

excellent write up dude. i hope it gets implemented

I agree with everything you just wrote Leinahtan. Great write up. Thank you for taking the time to put this into words. It was definitely needed.

Commenting on some things:

Leinahtan: Love the write up. One nitpick: "General Tazri He's the head of a unique 5c Food Chain deck."

General Tazri is actually female. She's the head of a unique 5c Food Chain deck.

I am also in support of that change to rule 1.

NarejED: I'm calling you out over a couple things:

First, "Adriana is pretty solidly Tier 5. She does nothing useful at all, is in awful colors, and costs 5 mana to boot."

Umm... No. We're assuming four player pods for all these lists. That means she offers all of your creatures a +3/+3 buff with no extra requirements to build around. That makes her a definitively better commander for R/W token aggro than Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, who's already in T4. (And personally, I think this strategy is a lot better than most of T4 and should probably be moved up, but that's another discussion.)

Secondly, and meant to bring this up two comment sweeps ago but I've been super busy: I'd like to contest the moving down of Yosei, the Morning Star, because:

Yosei plays a really weird deck where you ramp into Yosei, then immediately sacrifice him, lock down the most threatening player, then slot him into a reanimation engine and lock down everybody else while you dig for a Fiend Hunter sac loop. Here's a sample decklist: Yosei, the Morning Star.

I did a few playtests, and it seems to usually be able to lock down at least 2 players by turn 5 or 6. Not the greatest thing ever, but a lot better than most of T4. Also the Blade of Selves interaction is great.

Hotcake_Gotsyrup, "anyway, when are you going to put up that other guys actually good titania list?"

Wow, look what my hiatus has gotten me, I've been reduced to "that other guy." :=(

thegigibeast, here's the list again if you want it:

Optimized Titania, Protector of Argoth

Commander / EDH sonnet666

121 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

kyuuri117: Fully functional Leo, enjoy:

Leovold, Because Everybody Else Is Doing It

Commander / EDH* sonnet666

1 VIEW

What about a stax build for Leovold? There's been comments here and elsewhere that a storm variant might not be the best thing to go for? I don't know for sure of course. Thoughts?

Leo lends itself to a few Stax pieces Like Winters Orb but I honestly don't think he breaks parity enough to be a great stax commander unless you consider wheels to be a stax effect.

sonnet666: Your build is certainly strong, but there are a few choices I don't quite understand.

1) You use a lot of really bad Wheels such as Dark Deal Time Reversal and Diminishing Returns. You could save several card slots by simply using Bring to Light Ad Nauseam etc.

2) I worry that 36 lands will lead to a lot of Mana flooding considering your low curve and acceleration. I see you have ways to get extra lands in play but I was getting mana flooded with 32 and the 9 cards you devoting to land-based acceleration could possibly be better utilized elsewhere. A few cantrips Ponder, fast mana sources Dark Ritual, and recursion spells Noxious Revival would do wonders.

3) I see doomsday and hermit Druid but I don't see the cards that actually win with them. For Hermit Druid I don't see Memory's Journey Dread Return or Deep Analysis. I also don't se a Doomsday package.

sonnet666: Whoops. Can't believe I missed that... thegigibeast when you implement the post, just change it to "she."

Ohthenoises: I've played ~2 games with Alesha, so I wouldn't call myself the most qualified person, but I feel like she's a powerful part of the deck. You can get the other half of Kiki + Bellringer, you can bring back lock pieces like Yixid Jailer or Eidolon of Rhetoric, and she interacts nicely with Entomb and Buried Alive. However, her colors don't have much steady card advantage (e.g. Rhystic Study), so a way to draw extra cards would be nice. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in.

If Leovold doesn't pan out as a solid tier 1 commander compared to say Tasigur, I'm assuming he would still be used in the 99?

Noctem: I haven't tested leo in the 99 of any deck yet but I would assume he would be great. He's a hate bear in a color scheme that rarely gets such cards, he can be pitched to Force of Will, put into play with Green Sun's Zenith, and his affinity for wheels makes him perfect within a reanimator deck. I suspect he will replace Notion Thief in a lot of decks. Granted they do different things but Leo is cheaper and far less narrow.

That's what I was thinking but I'm not 100% sold on replacing Notion Thief. Agreed, they do similar and yet different things.. I would think perhaps running both would be good?

this may not be top strat but imagine donating leo to a nekusar player... as for the thief, id use leo over just cause you could get blown out by cons. sphinx