whynotboth.jpg?

Redundant effects are valuable. If you're in sultai and you have the space, why not run Thief, Sphinx, and Leovold?

same deck yes. However if you have thief and they cast sphinx, you deck out. whether or not someone can work out a lab man combo with this idk. I do agree with redundancy in moderation

If you use plenty of wheels both are great in the 99.

i feel like narset deserves tier one. she is really busted and hard to deal with. also i feel like kaho should be moved up to teir 3. She isn't a top tier control commander but she definitely fits your description of a tier 3 commander and is definitely not "weak". There is a pretty sweet kaho deck that has been dominating my local meta recently, my meta is far from tier 1, but there are plenty of tier 2 decks running around.

I think the CMC is one of the issues that is holding Narset back from getting to and remaining at tier 1.

@brisketbones-we have the arguements for narset doccumented multiple times but we appreciate the input. if Leinahtan's post was tl;dr, the reason she was demoted was because of the new mulligan rules.

@Lilbrudder-this seems like a decent bug strat for leo if budget is a concern. brew time?

chaosumbreon87: Actually I have already done that. Here is my current brew: Oh, I'm Sorry....Did I break your concentration?. It gets turn 3 wheel+leo very consistently, but there is always room for improvement. Cutting a handful of cards would save about $3,000 if budget is an issue.

shouldn't avacyn guardian angel be in t5 with the other trashmons? she is worse than pharika.

Lilbrudder, That's fine, I'm happy to go over them:

1) As far as the bad wheels go, I was loading up on consistency. The thing is that I typically don't want to have to tutor for them if I don't have to so I can get my harder locks like Puzzle Box (especially the top of deck tutors since they set me up to draw the card I need off of the wheel). Wheel effects are actually the block of the deck with the least cards, so I wanted to buffer myself against missing out on the effect.

Bring to Light and Ad Nauseam do seem really nice and are definitely something I overlooked. I think I'll probably work them into the deck, but even if I do, this effect is not really the section where I want to free up card slots, because I really want to be guaranteed to get this effect every game.

2) The land count can certainly be tweaked, but I actually haven't run into any issues of mana flooding. I'm not sure what 9 cards your talking about, but I was trying to fill my ramp slots with turn 1 accelerants that would fix my colors to get a turn 2 Leo. I also didn't really like how Dark Ritual effects played here, since I have such dense color requirements.

I also have a higher density of counterspells than you do, so I'm more likely to want to wait a turn or two to have extra protection if I'm in a really reactionary meta. Waiting the extra turn requires having the extra land to play that turn.

Personally, I think 30 lands is super risky and might get you screwed more often than not. Even with ramp in your opening hand, this deck still really wants to make it to a third or fourth land, so a 1 land hand can leave you at the mercy of your topdeck.

The only other deck I can think of that gets away with that number of lands is Brago, and if we compare the two, Brago has enough mana rocks to bring the total mana sources up to over 50% of the deck. This has, what? 45%? Most of which don't give you more than 1 mana?

Also I really don't like cantrips in commander. It's a 100 card singleton format; unless you have a strategy that supports them, they're mathematically unsound.

3) First off Dread Return is in the deck, you must have overlooked it, so that's covered. Now that you mentioned it, I might replace it with Memory's Journey since it's less of a dead card 99% of the time.

As for the lack of Doomsday stacks, I went over my reasoning a little bit in the "Wincons" section of my description, but I'll reiterate here. My deck is a lot more "all-in" on the lock-out strategy than yours, so I figured it just wasn't worth devoting extra card slots to cards that don't do anything to advance that plan and become superfluous once that plan succeeds. If you have Leo + Puzzle Box on the field, and you're cycling through hand after hand of counters, it really doesn't matter how many turns you take to win. You can use Doomsday to stack LabMan and four lands, and odds are you're still going to win.

Including Doomsday stacks might make the deck less reliant on Leo, but I think you may have over-invested in the strategy, and that overall, it adds dead weight that can make the deck less consistent.

Ultimately, the optimized version of Leo is probably going to combine elements of both our decks. I'll keep tinkering.

Wow, that was a lot more than I thought I was going to type...

brisketbones, The problem that Kaho has that keeps him out of T3 is that your opponents can deny you access to your gameplan just by removing (or even flickering) your commander, because you lose access to the spells you exiled. If auras are a 2-for-1 when removed, Kaho is basically a 4-for-1. Plus, he doesn't have haste, so even if you exiled something simple, like 3 counters, you still have to wait a whole turn cycle before you can use them use them.

Those kind of weaknesses are just too much for a commander to be T3 viable.

Hotcake_Gotsyrup, If you ramp hard enough with her you can make yourself invulnerable to all relevant damage with no extra build requirements.

It's kind of mediocre, but she's not altogether useless.

Yeah I'm totally putting that deck together Lilbrudder, I picked up a foil Leovold, Emissary of Trest last friday while drafting with friends. :D

but what is immortality of damage really. oh wait, Palisade Giant, Pariah, Pariah's Shield, Protector of the Crown, Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo. any relevant combos in white to search out as i stall? pm me sonnet?

Well W does have Angel of Glory's Rise Maybe some kind of hatebear human reanimator? Win via stax?

sonnet666: You bring up some good points. What I meant by 9 slots was 6 lands, plus the extra land cards. Sorry I missed the dread return and I see what you mean by doomsday, but most the cards in my piles have uses outside the piles. I am using the piles I am so I can win on turn 4-5 after I have wheeled so the game doesnt linger. As for my low land count I went down to 30 because I was getting too many lands in hand at 32 and I have rarely had to mullighan in testing. The cantrips are great at digging for the right cards early and they get my doomsday piles started the turn I cast it. I could definitely use more counterspells but I almost always have a counter in hand when I go for the turn 3 wheel and a way to get the effect back if I get shut down like Regrowth I feel tutors+ramp have ensured that I at worst get a wheel off on turn 4 and top deck mode has rarely if ever been a problem unless the table gang bangs me early. I will test your deck so I get a better feel for it. I am curious how the land ramp works on a game to game basis.

Ohthenoises: the brew begins

on that note why is pharika t5, she is clearly bad, but t5 bad. whew

Hey just out of curiosity does anyone have a grixis storm list on tapped out they mind posting? The one the list has is excellent, but mtgsalvation doesn't have a Playtest option. At least I don't think it does...

the t1 jeleva deck is storm, try that out

you seem to have misunderstood. the jeleva ling is on mtgsal. he wants to playtest it. you might just have to find a similar one in the "competitive" "edh" "storm" tags. or you can copy paste the deck over here, just make sure to mark as netdeck.

Oh ya, sorry, i forgot i already copied it. Sorry!!

There are many ways to give kaho haste and protection the turn she comes out (thousand year elixir, lightning greaves, swiftfoot boots, etc.), and in multiplayer she isn't going to always be the biggest target for your opponents. Its also very easy to just straight up lock people out of the game with kaho. Also anything that reduces her abilities cost or copies it can be kinda sweet. I see how there is an argument for her/him (still not sure which it is) to be tier 4 but i feel like she deserves tier 3.

you teach me how to lock someone out of the game with 3 instants or sorceries on t4-5 on mono-blue, and i will def vote her up. and copying her ability would only work if you had 2 cards with the same cmc, since you are casting the spell itself, and not making a copy of it.

you teach me how to lock someone out of the game with 3 instants or sorceries on t4-5 on mono-blue, and i will def vote her up. and copying her ability would only work if you had 2 cards with the same cmc, since you are casting the spell itself, and not making a copy of it.

So then Leovold has been designated as tier 2 for now?

you teach me how to lock someone out of the game with 3 instants or sorceries on t4-5 on mono-blue, and i will def vote her up. and copying her ability would only work if you had 2 cards with the same cmc, since you are casting the spell itself, and not making a copy of it. NOTE:if i triple post, it is because of a error, if im spamming it, it isn't on purpose.