MagicalHacker - List of All Optimum Ramp

Commander / EDH* MagicalHacker

SCORE: 68 | 81 COMMENTS | 49653 VIEWS | IN 51 FOLDERS


Crackbubba says... #1

What about Treasonous Ogre? Or does that fit in the limited number of uses clause?

May 12, 2018 2:10 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #2

To everyone mentioned in this comment:

Thank you for your comments, and I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to you. Between managing all my lists and setting up everything to be able to post commander gameplay videos to my YouTube channel, I have been overloaded with work. Thank you for your patience :)


Voxzorz, after coming back to this list, I've decided to not include the majority of spells that ramp up by a single mana, so Recross the Paths is no longer a spell that would fit to this list. (If you would like to see my reasoning for that, simply read the disclaimer at the top of the description of this list. Thanks!)

Gaspacho, thanks, I've removed those group hug cards except for Tempt with Discovery, because you will always get more ramp than each opponent regardless of how many fall into temptation. Also, after coming back to this list, I've decided to not include the majority of spells that ramp up by a single mana, so Spoils of Victory is no longer a spell that would fit to this list. (If you would like to see my reasoning for that, simply read the disclaimer at the top of the description of this list. Thanks!)

Intergalactic_Hegemon, after coming back to this list, I've decided to not include the majority of spells that ramp up by a single mana, so Sea Scryer is no longer a spell that would fit to this list. (If you would like to see my reasoning for that, simply read the disclaimer at the top of the description of this list. Thanks!) As for one-time-use mana acceleration, my reasoning for not including them is this: If you use mana acceleration at the beginning of the game, your board state will be much better than each opponents', which causes opponents to become more afraid of you, which in turn makes it much harder for you to win as your opponents are more likely to be focusing their attention on you instead of on each other; if you use it towards the middle of the game or later, you give up explosiveness to do a smaller version of what these types of ramp spells do. Either way, since the average game is about 11 turns long, it makes no sense to try to replace cards that give a significant permanent boost in mana with ones that give a temporary boost, even if that boost is much higher.

TheDeckMaker2300, Patron of the Moon is a fantastic inclusion, thank you!

xevecx1, after coming back to this list, I've decided to not include the majority of spells that ramp up by a single mana, so Yavimaya Dryad, Yavimaya Granger, and Dawntreader Elk no longer are spells that would fit to this list. (If you would like to see my reasoning for that, simply read the disclaimer at the top of the description of this list. Thanks!)

Crackbubba, Treasonous Ogre is a fantastic inclusion actually! Consider it this way: If a deck gains more than 9 life a turn, Treasonous Ogre can activate up to three times in a turn!

May 14, 2018 5:47 p.m.

smashadams83 says... #3

Retraced Image is a nice blue ramp spell.

June 1, 2018 4 p.m.

imagenus says... #4

Why isn't Krosan Restorer on this list?

June 27, 2018 8:16 a.m.

MagicalHacker says... #5

smashadams83, for a deck that would like to use a card to ramp, by one, that is very true. However, this deck does not feature cards that only ramp by one (see the disclaimer for my reasoning). I apologize if this change to the deck was made after you suggested the card, as I do think it would have been a great card in a previous version of this list. :)

imagenus, it was missing because I missed it in my search. However, it has now been added! Thanks!

SaltySpecula, for a deck that would like to use a card to ramp, by one, that is a good ramp card. However, this deck does not feature cards that only ramp by one (see the disclaimer for my reasoning). I apologize if this change to the deck was made after you suggested the card, as I do think it would have been a great card in a previous version of this list. :)

July 12, 2018 4:33 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #6

Sorry again! As I go through my decks to update with new cards (and this time, also clean up the scryfall searches due to changes in how regex is treated), I sometimes tweak the search and the cards present in the deck, which can sometimes result in me coincidentally changing the list such that suggestions made before the change (which I wait until after I'm done, since adding them in before I'm finished with the list without recommendations is a lot harder) go from being great and perfectly in line with the outline of the deck to being well outside of the parameters. I always feel really bad, because of how it looks, but more because of how it can be taken personally, which is not my intention at all.

Sweet! As I go through my list, I'll continue to respond to any comments you've made. Thank you for the feedback, as I could not make these lists without the amazing critique of the community :)

July 13, 2018 1:16 a.m.

I'm guessing you don't consider the signets or talismans to be ramp?

November 9, 2018 2:16 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #8

I would definitely count them as ramp in a deck, but the reason theyre not on the list is because there are enough cards for more substantial ramp on this list :) The list does need to be updated though to include ramp that is less mana efficient if it ramps by 2 or more lands.

November 10, 2018 3:08 a.m.

Gotcha :) just cross-referencing my lists with yours cuz I might get rid of mine xD yours have way more. Thanks though

November 10, 2018 7:50 a.m.

Shadeslinger says... #10

High Tide for blue. It adds an additional blue for each island you tap.

December 6, 2018 6:43 p.m.

Agent_Fire says... #11

Would Winter's Night count here as ramp?

December 6, 2018 6:49 p.m.

kekleon9999 says... #13

EDIT TO MY LAST COMMENT: Just read the disclaimer. Don't mind me!

February 8, 2019 3:40 p.m.

kineticstasis says... #14

Is there a reason Burnished Hart isn't on here? It seems to fit pretty cleanly into your criteria.

March 7, 2019 4:20 p.m.

Ra says... #15

There is not a single deck of mine, with green in it, that doesn't run a copy of Tempt with Discovery. I find the card to be extremely useful at any point of the game because it's a psycological approach to the whole table wether you play with grouphug strategies or not. In my opinion what makes it so great is that I would pay 4 mana any day if that spell can search my library for any land and lets me play it untapped, even if others are not tempted to do so. Of course there is always the "downside" that someone else could search for a Strip Mine-kind of land but the card specifically states that they have to put their land onto the battlefield first and then you search for another one, this is very clever wording because it gives you the advantage to respond to whatever land they chose.

September 8, 2019 7:16 a.m.

Just telling a update for this list is needed

Bone Miser Which is a creature version of Waste Not

And Dockside Extortionist since you get treasure per artifact and enchantment your opponents have

(If both qualify for the list ofcoarse)

April 15, 2020 10:40 a.m.

MagicalHacker says... #17

Shadeslinger, while it's good at giving you an immediate boost in mana, this list is for cards that give you extra mana over the course of the game. I will look into it and similar effects, and if I can reasonably reach the conclusion that virtually all decks should benefit from them, I will make another list called "List of Burst Mana" effects or something similar to that.

Agent_Fire, in a weird way, it's more like reverse-storing mana, since you can exert snow lands for two mana. Close, but I don't think it fits here!

kineticstasis, I believe I've had Burnished Hart on this list for a while, but I might be wrong... Either way, it's on the list currently!

Ra, that's a good point. If one or no opponents get a land, then it's producing a mana advantage of less than 2. If two or three opponents get a land with no strip mine effects, it's producing a mana advantage of greater than two. With strip mine effects, then you would be back down to a smaller advantage. It's hard to tell if it's good for the list, but for now, I'm gonna say that it's probably not within the parameters of the list. (It is on my tutor list though!)

TheDeckMaker2300, it's hard to justify playing Bone Miser here, as you have to discard at least 2 land cards each turn in order to be better than Gilded Lotus (otherwise, it is just more fragile and less mana productive, although I do have it on my card draw list). Dockside Extortionist is similar to the High Tide discussion with Shadeslinger above, so it all depends on how good burst of mana are in Commander.

June 16, 2020 5:07 p.m.

Not sure how this is, "a list of optimum ramp" when you exclude so much of the best ramp. I see your disclaimer, but I think you can make any list a, "list of optimum [x]" if you make your disclaimer so restrictive. Should be realistic and change the title to "list of decent cards that have the potential to ramp by 2 or more."

June 22, 2020 4:49 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #19

arcane_trouper, that change is relatively recent, as it used to say "list of ramp" and a few players felt that I should change the title to reflect that I've purposely left off mini-ramp. Due to the length constraint of the name that Tappedout has, the best title I could find is the one I'm currently using. Hopefully, that clears things up for you!

June 23, 2020 9:07 a.m.

Ok. Still seems like "List of Big Ramp" would be succinct and clearer than "optimum".

Also, what about Mana Crypt?

June 23, 2020 7:09 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #21

arcane_trouper, that would be better if optimum ramp were a misnomer.

Mana Crypt fails under the fifth point under "what this doesn't include" because you would lose about 38.6% of your life to it in the average game if you get it out on turn 1. Turn 2, 34.8%. Turn 3, 31.1%. Turn 4, 27.3%. Losing over a quarter of your life for ramp seems like a questionable tactical decision, especially since it has such a reputation for being so powerful that people tend to respond by overreacting and dealing you even more damage, destroying more of your things, and countering your spells. It's something that is right for a few decks, but I saw it make me win less often when I just played it in every deck.

June 24, 2020 10:27 a.m.

Epidilius says... #22

At this point, the name is a misnomer. Mana Crypt and Mana Vault should be near the top of any "best ramp" list, but they aren't included here. Quite frankly, the life loss doesn't really matter if you land a Mana Crypt turn 1 either, since you will either be far enough ahead that you are winning, or an opponent will destroy it.

Also, you have a rule of "no creatures" because of board wipes, which limits the credibility of this list. There a ton of artifact wipes and mass land destruction spells as well. And if you have this rule, why do you include cards that rely on creatures, like Sword of Feast and Famine? They are even harder to use than Llanowar Elves, since the elf doesn't have to attack (and connect!) to add mana.

I agree with arcane_trouper, this should be renamed or reworked to fit the name.

June 24, 2020 6:26 p.m.

Magical Hacker, not sure I follow your math. Mana Crypt loses you 1.5 life every upkeep. Assuming you play it turn 1 (so you don't lose life until turn 2), and the game ends on turn 10, that's 13.5 life for 20 mana. That's only 0.675 life per mana. Compare that to Carnival of Souls which will cost you 1 life per mana.

June 24, 2020 9:42 p.m.

progresso says... #24

Gunna have to agree with a lot of the commenters here, kinda absurd to not include any of the fast mana, signets, talismans, dorks, or 2 drop single land spells on a list of ramp. Your playgroup needs to be absurdly janky, literally 1-3 power level for those cards to be not considered running.

June 27, 2020 5:52 p.m.

MagicalHacker says... #25

Epidilius, I would disagree that Mana Crypt and Mana Vault "should" be on every ramp list, but for different reasons. Mana Crypt, when played in a regular deck, only results in an opponent losing more life, both from the inherent lifeloss ability and the response from opponents. Mana Crypt and Necropotence are the two cards I think of immediately when it comes to this type of effect. So while Mana Crypt definitely fulfills the role of ramp, the fact that it more often pushes decks towards losing rather than winning (in regular Commander, as my lists aren't designed to be used for cEDH) makes it excluded from the list.

On the other hand, Mana Vault doesn't actually ramp, it's more akin to a ritual. The fact that it doesn't untap itself means it's essentially a Dark Ritual for decks without black.

Regarding creatures, artifact wipes and MLD are nowhere near as common as creature-destroying wipes. That likelihood is a huge factor! Sword of Feast and Famine is not something that dies to a board wipe, whereas One with Nature does when the enchanted creature dies. The difference is that Sword of Feast and Famine can equip to any creature, and if that creature dies, you don't lose access to the card giving you the ramp (you only lose access to the ramp itself if you don't have any haste enablers). In my experience, those factors makes Sword of Feast and Famine a much more reliable source of ramp than Llanowar Elves.

Ultimately, my point is that these are all the ramp cards I would possibly recommend to someone. The other cards might as well not even exist.

arcane_trouper, you make a good point about life loss per mana made, but the difference between Mana Crypt and Carnival of Souls is that your multiple opponents are definitely likely to focus on making sure you don't win when you play a Mana Crypt than if you played a Carnival of Souls. They usually do that by attacking you for more damage and/or using spot removal/counterspells on your cards more often. That's why I found that Mana Crypt led to more losses than wins, and ultimately why it didn't fit on this list. That said, Carnival of Souls also needs to go!

Since you asked about my math, here it is: If the game ends on turn 10.29 (number from a recent video from Command Zone, which is very close to the number I got from analyzing the games present on my YouTube channel, where three opponents played whatever Commander decks and cards they want), then getting a Mana Crypt out on turn 1 gives you 9.29 flips. Each flip makes you lose an average of 1.5 life, so 9.29 multiplied by 1.5 is 13.935, and that divided by 40 is about 34.8%. Doing the same math for 8.29 and 7.29 (playing it on turn two or turn three, respectively) gives you the other two percentages.

progresso, actually, if you watch the video in the disclaimer, you'll see the mathematical reason why your statement is false.

Also, this should be pretty clear by now, this list is made up of cards I recommend for a specific result informed primarily by a mathematical approach at calculating the best tactical decisions and secondarily by comparing the results of employing tactical decisions in line with those calculations to the results of employing traditional strategy. That leaves no room for community consensus to override that research.

July 6, 2020 5:19 p.m.

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