Drana's Delirium (EMN Midrange)

Standard* michael921

SCORE: 8 | 27 COMMENTS | 4316 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER


clayperce says... #1

michael921,
Seeing the Warcaller makes me think maybe Elfball, as a path to the aggro build that Drana is really looking for.

See, for example ...

February 22, 2016 6:57 a.m.

farrowking37 says... #2

I'd reccommend replacing Den Protector with Heir of Falkenrath  Flip. She can help enable delirium, and the extra evasion is always nice, and I find that Den Protector's megamorph ability to return a card to your hand hurts more than it helps if you're trying to reach delirium.

April 7, 2016 11:42 a.m.

michael921 says... #3

My thought on Den Protector was that with the extra counters from the Obsessive Skinner and Drana, Liberator of Malakir, its essentially unlockable as its power gets out of control. I was also thinking that the deck would get more than enough cards in the graveyard, but it certainly is a negative to the Den Protector...

I'll think about it :) Thank you farrowking37

April 7, 2016 8:32 p.m.

farrowking37 says... #4

No problem! That was an aspect of Den Protector that I hadn't considered before! Glad we both got something out of it michael921! :)

April 7, 2016 9:29 p.m.

clayperce says... #5

michael921,
Oh what a fun deck! +1 for sure.
For whatever it's worth, I enjoyed playtesting it better than your other Drana variations ... feels fresher.

As you might expect, I playtested against Gruul Wolves (SOI Full Aggro). some thoughts, in no particular order:

Game 1: My deck won

  • Your deck had 2x Hangarback Walker out, and they did good work. But I'm not sure if SOI Standard is going to be kind to the ol' Walkers. There are a LOT of Exile effects out there, and frazzin' Silkwrap is probably still a thing too. Just something to think about.
  • You may want a little more Swamp. Your deck had Lilli, Kalitas, and Grasp of Darkness in hand, and you were stuck on one black source until Turn 6 ... by then my deck had the combo out and your deck was pretty much doomed :-/

Game 2: My deck won, but this one wasn't fair. Your deck had what I thought was a great hand, but it turned out to be WAY too control-heavy and Creature-light. My deck got ahead early and raced successfully. But it retrospect, I should have mulliganed. Still, your deck may need just a little more Creature.

More to follow ...

April 8, 2016 10:47 p.m.

michael921 says... #6

clayperce, thank you for deck testing! Im looking at increasing the reliability of the deck, as I have too many three ofs instead of four. Hangarback Walker is more used as a 2+ for delirium, rather than as a beater. I think the black mana might be an anomaly, as I have 17 black sources, and you can get land with the vessel and den protector.

Thank you for testing!

April 10, 2016 8:21 p.m.

kutcha says... #7

Have you thought about collected company?

April 11, 2016 1:43 p.m.

clayperce says... #8

kutcha,
No, this is not a good deck for CoCo. You need at least 22 targetable Creatures for CoCo to be worthwhile, and neither Hangarback Walker (actually, terrible with CoCo) nor Mindwrack Demon count.

michael921,
BTW, I asked about Incremental Growth over on this thread ... apparently it's totally legal. Not sure it's a good fit for the deck, but I wanted to mention.
I'll be back later for some more testing ... really! :-)

April 11, 2016 9:48 p.m. Edited.

michael921 says... #9

Tagging people that have helped me in the past

April 12, 2016 7:40 a.m.

Odyssey says... #10

Some observations:

Your deck is a midrange deck, and the two best midrange delirium cards are Traverse the Ulvenwald and Mindwrack Demon.

You should run Traverse the Ulvenwald, preferably 2-3 copies. On the one hand, you need more sorceries to reliably achieve delirium, and on the other it turns into an incredible 1 mana tutor in this deck by the time you want to start tutoring specific cards up. If you run 3 or so of this card, you can put 1-of silver bullet creatures in your main deck (or bring them in from the sideboard) and count on reliably finding them. Things like removal attached to a body (Gilt-Leaf Winnower/Fleshbag Marauder), enchantment removal (Conclave Naturalists/Caustic Caterpillar (sideboard only)) or midrange trump cards like The Gitrog Monster, Greenwarden of Murasa, or a Nissa, Vastwood Seer  Flip that finds you your 7th land and transforms right away. The only reason you don't run 4 of this card is because you have a two color deck (so the mana fixing is less critical) and it is a durdly card in the early game. Having 3 or so of this card does let you run 1 or 2 less lands, however.

By the time you cast Mindwrack Demon and his trigger resolves, you will have achieved delirium 95% of the time. Even if you don't, his trigger doesn't lose you life until your next upkeep, so you will have time to untap and cast an instant in response to the trigger if your graveyard doesn't have any instants in it. This guy is a flying siege rhino and one of the best delirium enablers in the deck. Any time your opponent can't remove him or somehow stonewall him, you will win the game. Run 4.

Run 4 Evolving Wilds. You have so many cards that want delirium active, and this is one of the easiest ways to enable it.

Hangarback Walker has good synergy with Drana and delirium cards. Run 4.

Moldgraf Scavenger is a worse Hangarback in this deck. Early game both will provide a good blocker, but the scavenger only grows to a 3/4 while Hangarback can grow bigger and provide flyers if needed. You are heavy on 2-drops already, so I would remove all of these.

Obsessive Skinner is also a very underwhelming card, even once you've achieved delirium. I can see running 1 potentially as a late game Traverse the Ulvenwald target, but that's still very questionable and only a good idea against decks that gum up the board and have very little removal. I would go to zero, personally.

Vessel of Nascency is ok, but it's a slow durdly card and you can only afford so many of these. If you add in the Traverses (and you most definitely should) then your budget for durdling will be getting thin. Enchantments do help with delirium, however. I prefer Dead Weight to this, however. Dead Weight is just always useful as long as your opponent's deck has creatures. Vessel is terrible against aggressive decks and is essentially a cost Anticipate.

You are heavy on two drops and don't have any way to deal with planeswalkers. Your removal is entirely blanked by eldrazi as well. You need to diversify your removal suite to include some copies of To the Slaughter and/or Ruinous Path. The exact balance between these will be dependent on what you see in your local meta, but To the Slaughter becomes better in a more controlling deck with lots of ways to kill small creatures and Ruinous Path is better in a deck that wants to tap out on its own turn most of the time.

Duress is also questionable with all of the madness spells running around. It's still good, just not universally good like it was before the rotation. I would move this one to the sideboard.

Transgress the Mind is still a good discard spell, however. It will often mess up your opponent's curve and give you enough information to decide how to sequence your next turns (i.e. do I hold up mana for removal or play out a creature?)

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is great, but also expensive and not necessary to acquire if you don't have one already. It's nice to have maindeck lifegain, even if it's just 1 or 2 cards. Pulse of Murasa is also an option, and you can loop it with Den Protector in chump block mode in the late game to buy time.

Sylvan Advocate is great and worth acquiring though. If you plan to play green decks for the next year or so, this guy will easily earn his spot in most of them. He also gives you something to bring back with a transformed Liliana.

A few Read the Bones will help with your deck's consistency, as well as contribute to delirium. Especially in sideboarded games when you bring in non-Traverseable cards like Languish, this will help find them.

My suggestions:

Add:

+2 Traverse the Ulvenwald

+1 Hangarback Walker

+1 Mindwrack Demon

+2 Dead Weight

+1 Evolving Wilds (you want more than 22 lands if you are playing Den Protector and Mindwrack Demon)

+1 Ruinous Path

+1 To the Slaughter

+2 Transgress the Mind

+4 Sylvan Advocate

+2 Read the Bones

+1 Pulse of Murasa

Take out:

-4 Moldgraf Scavenger

-3 Obsessive Skinner

-4 Vessel of Nascency

-3 Duress

-2 Grasp of Darkness

-1 Ultimate Price

-1 Autumnal Gloom  Flip (the card is fine, but having multiples in your opening hand is not since it's slow to enable delirium by itself)

April 12, 2016 12:49 p.m.

clayperce has asked me to come check out your deck and see if I can offer any help or suggestions. This was brought up to me because I too have a B/G Delirium deck, which you can find HERE if you were curios. The thing is I can't really think of what to suggest as our two decks, while both using Delirium in one way or another, are almost completely different: mine uses Delirium in small quantities to aid my mid-range strategy, while you are full blown devoted to Delirium and wanting to enable it as soon as possible.

What I can do is back up some suggestions made by Odyssey.

Sylvan Advocate is way better than Moldgraf Scavenger in the 2 drop slot. Advocate is just more aggressive overall, and gets bigger later in the game, while even though Delirium can trigger before you hit 6 lands, all the Scavenger does is block early and becomes a weaker Advocate later. Keep in mind that the Advocate also eventually turns your Hissing Quagmires into 4/4s, which can close the game fast if your opponent is open for a turn or two.

Transgress the Mind, should be in the deck. Sideboard, mainboard, your pick, but it should be in the deck. Hand disruption is one of the strongest tools B/G Mid Range decks have at their disposal in almost every format. We don't have Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek, but Transgress gets the job done.

Pulse of Murasa is a card I can vouch for, and so is Seasons Past to be honest. Pulse is going to be great in attrition matches, and it's going to give you some padding against all the hyper aggressive decks you are going to be seeing. The same goes for Den Protector. Don't let the fact that if you cast these cards you might be turning off Delirium. You aren't going to be casting recursion spells unless you need to, so it isn't like you are really slowing it down by that much, but think about this scenario: your opponent has a threat on the board, and your own board is in shambles, the only answer is in your graveyard but if you grab that answer you are turning off Delirium. What would you do? I think the obvious answer would be, screw Delirium and grab that answer. Being able to recur anything that you self mill or re-using removal spells, a creature you traded with last combat, or hell, even an Evolving Wilds if you missed your land drop, can change the tide of the game. There is also the fact that if turning off Delirium makes you lose the game, then you should probably reconsider how much you are devoting to Delirium.

Speaking of hyper aggressive decks, on the other hand, I think that Languish could see a spot in the main board as a one or two of. I know, Languish will likely wipe your board too, but if you are facing any aggressive deck, or token based strategy, wiping the field is going to hurt them more than it is going to hurt you. I honestly think that Languish is going to see quite a bit of play, at least in the first few weeks, since Bant Company, Mono White, and the many other aggressive decks, are going to be most of what people play in my opinion.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I would like to see more removal, I don't think 6 is enough with how creature heavy decks are going to be in this standard. Ob Nixilis Reignited could see a spot in the deck too I think; and maybe Clip Wings over Self-Inflicted Wound, as a better answer to Archangel Avacyn  Flip and Westvale Abbey. I lost my train of thought half way through writing this, so I am sure I missed a couple of other things I wanted to point out, but I hope this was helpful.

April 14, 2016 5:47 p.m.

michael921 says... #12

kutcha, I had thought about CoCo, and dismissed it like clayperce, for very much the same reasons, he just beat me to replying to you! Thank you though!

The_Riddlebox, and Odyssey, thank you so much for your card breakdowns that might help this deck! This has really helped this deck come along, and help focus what I want to do with it as well! Here are my card break downs as well:

I had been thinking that Moldgraf Scavenger was a similar card to Sylvan Advocate, but more budget. I now see how much better the advocate is, as I had actually been forgetting about vigilance.

I happen to have cracked a Nissa, Vastwood Seer  Flip and a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, so they are currently in the deck as silver bullets to get with the Traverse the Ulvenwald. What are some other silver bullets that I should consider?

I'm definitally adding more removal as in testing I wasn't interacting with my opponent much. Two Languish going straight in!

I'm currently leaving 2x Obsessive Skinner and Vessel of Nascency, because as riddle said, I want delerium as fast as possible to start getting value. In addition, the skinner puts my creatures out of range of getting languished or getting destroyed by a flashed Archangel Avacyn  Flip, which I am immensely afraid of in this standard format.

Similarly, I'm leaving 3x Autumnal Gloom  Flip in the deck because it has both hexproof and trample. it dodges almost every removal spell in the format, especially against Declaration in Stone, which is the format's current most popular removal spell.

I'll put the Pulse of Murasa as a maybe for now because I only have so many slots for durdleing, like Odyssey said, I do admit it is really good however.

Duress will hit the sideboard, being another counter to the non-madness decks, and Transgress the Mind is very nearly in the main board, if I figure out what card to replace it with :-P

Thank you all so much for your help in this deck!

April 14, 2016 8:12 p.m.

Odyssey says... #13

Regarding silver bullets, besides the ones I already listed, Sidisi, Undead Vizier is probably the worth considering. She's kind of mediocre in your main 60 since you won't be able to use the tutor ability to great effect until games 2 and 3. But you can side her in in certain matchups like ramp. A 4/6 deathtouch blocks World Breaker and 4/5 Sylvan Advocates all day, and doesn't die to Chandra, Flamecaller unless they've already ticked her up twice. You can then afford to run 1-of discard spells like Infinite Obliteration or Pick the Brain to nab the win conditions that you really can't deal with (Ulamog, mostly). Her exploit ability also has some synergy with Hangarback.

I have a similar style deck (Jund though) which uses the same silver bullet strategy in the sideboard. List is here: Jund Midrange. All but two of my sideboard cards can be tutored up or flashed back (by Goblin Dark-Dwellers) by the various tutor options I have. I opted for Dark Petition as my sideboard tutor of choice for slower matchups, since the deck I linked has a weakness to end step Secure the Wastes in game 1, and Dark Petition finds and casts Virulent Plague with spell mastery. The Sidisi, Undead Vizier option was something I looked at, but I decided it was a bit slow, especially since I have Dark-Dwellers as a turn 5 play to re-cast a spell the same turn.

Also, relying on 3 Natural State in the sideboard for enchantment destruction is risky since it misses some important win conditions that other decks have. Demonic Pact, Pyromancer's Goggles, Retreat to Emeria, Sigil of the Empty Throne, Starfield of Nyx, and Thopter Spy Network are all misses for Natural State. Granted, those cards aren't going to be ones you see often, but sideboards exist to deal with unexpected things, so having unconditional enchantment removal in some numbers is better. You could do a 1-1-1 split of Natural State, Naturalize, and Caustic Caterpillar. Caterpillar is the most costly, but can also be tutored by Traverse and does come with a body that can chump block. The exact split is up to you, but I wouldn't rely on Natural State to handle all of your enchantment removal.

If you are afraid of Avacyn, you will need more removal, at least in your sideboard. Most decks that run her right now have a lot of creatures that will come before her, and if they have 5 lands and open mana, any removal you cast will often be countered by Avacyn. Dead Weight and To the Slaughter are the exceptions here. The former is also good at killing the random X/1s and X/2s that these decks like to throw out early on. You can cast a Languish of course, which Avacyn can't stop, but with only 2 of them in your deck you can't rely entirely on Languish to deal with Avacyn decks. Grasp of Darkness is also a good way to get around Avacyn, but you will likely expend any you have in hand before Avacyn comes down. What you don't want against Avacyn decks is to kill off only one or two creatures, then stare down 3+ other attacking creatures when they have 5 mana open. Any blocks you make have to take into consideration that their creatures might become indestructible, so you ideally want to keep the board pretty clear. Avacyn is much weaker when she only gives 1 or 2 other creatures indestructible.

April 14, 2016 10:25 p.m.

michael921 says... #14

As a counter to the white weenie decks in standard right now, how to feel about Tooth Collector in this deck? Also, as an alternative to Duress or Transgress the Mind, how about Pick the Brain?

I also feel like the 2x vessels might be exceeding the durdle threshold. Should I replace them with Gather the Pack, or hand attack, or other removal?

I like splitting up my enchantment removal in case of other things I hadn't considered. Thank you!

I do still think I need more removal, but I have no idea what I should cut to replace with more removal :/ aggro decks I've played before had 10 pieces of removal. Is that too low for midrange?

April 20, 2016 10:49 a.m.

Odyssey says... #15

Tooth Collector is bad even with delirium achieved. The white weenies deck can put +1/+1 counters on creatures easily, and a single Always Watching makes Tooth Collector irrelevant.

Ultimate Price is still a fine removal spell. It misses some multicolored creatures played by the Bant decks, as well as Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, but hits most everything else. You need one or two cards in your deck that simply say "Destroy target creature" to handle these situations. Ruinous Path or Ob Nixilis Reignited are good options. You don't need 3x Grasp of Darkness when you are running 2x Languish, as that's redundant and you want to diversify your "efficient" removal like Ultimate Price while having a few unconditional removal spells like Ruinous Path that cover the general case, but at a slightly greater mana cost.

A certain number of Grasp of Darkness is good to have to deal with Archangel Avacyn  Flip, but it's less reliable as a turn 2 removal spell so I would switch out 1 or 2 of those for Ultimate Prices.

Replacing the Vessels with something more proactive is a good idea. You'll achieve delirium naturally in this deck just by interacting with your opponent and playing Mindwrack Demon (he will usually find the 4th card type when you have the first 3). Any card you put in your deck specifically to fuel delirium is a risk, as if your opponent deals with whatever delirium payoff you get out of it (e.g. the creature you tutored up with Traverse the Ulvenwald) then they've basically got a 2-for-1. This deck can do what GB decks do best and prolong the game via attrition, in which delirium will be achieved just by dealing with your opponent's threats and forcing them to remove your own.

Delirium decks want a certain number of cards that can reliably go to the graveyard in the first few turns. Removal doesn't really count for this, since early on there may not be any creatures that your removal hits. Or maybe you have available on turn 2 and your third land produces but comes in tapped, so Grasp of Darkness is dead until turn 4. Discard and cards like Pulse of Murasa help (for Pulse, you can play your own Hangarback for 0 and return it if there are no valid targets). I run 3x Kolaghan's Command in my Jund list for this reason, as shock + discard is always a live mode.

Pick the Brain is too much of a niche card to play in your main deck. Even if you have delirium when you cast it (which usually wont be until turn 4 or later) it can fail pretty hard. The card you want to exile might not be in their hand, for one. Or it might be an instant and they might cast it in response. It's best against decks that have specific backbreaking late game threats that your removal can't deal with easily. Cards like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and Chandra, Flamecaller. It's ok in the sideboard for these matchups though. Transgress the Mind and Duress are more reliable, especially Transgress.

Autumnal Gloom  Flip also counts towards your durdle budget until you hit delirium, as it does nothing put provide you with a color-specific mana sink until then. The hexproof it has is theoretically best against control decks, but right now I expect control decks to be running Languish, Chandra, or both so I don't think it's well positioned at the moment, being bad against aggro and control and only good against other midrange decks is very niche.

April 20, 2016 1:01 p.m.

michael921 says... #16

At the moment, I still think that Autumnal Gloom  Flip is really good, especially with a counter from Obsessive Skinner or Drana, Liberator of Malakir. Against prevalent removal right now it dodges Declaration in Stone, Stasis Snare, Silkwrap, Languish, turn one Chandra, Flamecaller, and Grasp of Darkness. Making it a 5/5 also prevents weenie decks from attacking into it easily, and against control it continues to beat down. It is worst against ramp however.

Isn't Pick the Brain just as niche as Transgress the Mind or Duress? They all have a seemingly equal downside in my mind. Duress has the opponent discard the card, making it worse against madness, and also can't hit creatures. Transgress costs one more but can't hit some of the low cost threats like Declaration in Stone. Finally, Pick costs the most, but it hits anything that isn't land, and can exile all copies of that card. Is it the difference in mana cost that changes the value of the card? The argument you used for Pick seems applicable for both duress and transgress as well...I'm just not sure what makes a hand attack card effecient.

In addition, Doesnt Gather the Pack and vessel help the attrition? You're making all of the delerium cards better, and making your Den Protector better as well as getting a relevant card from the top of your deck. I might be thinking of this the wrong way, and want to hear more of your thoughts on this.

As always, thank you for helping! I really appreciate it!

April 20, 2016 2:20 p.m.

Odyssey says... #17

The issue with Pick the Brain is its cost. If you play it on turn 3, it will usually just make them discard a card of your choosing since you won't have delirium by then. The question is, do you want to spend your turn 3 doing only this? In most cases, you don't, as turn 3 is too important for stabilizing against your opponent. 3 mana to make them discard a card is actually quite a lot.

Discard is good at breaking up synergy and giving you information. Unless you know you're up against a synergy-based deck (something like UR Pyromancer's Goggles), then what you're getting for the 3 mana is essentially information. If you play against some generic creature-based deck and take their best creature, they will still have 2-3 others in hand and will proceed to cast them. It would have been better for you to let them spend their turn casting the creature so at least they used their mana up, then to kill it afterwards.

In BG colors, you can't deal with enchantments and artifacts well (at least pre-board) so discard can take things like Always Watching or Pyromancer's Goggles. Duress and Transgress the Mind are playable in the main 60 of some decks and give you a way to deal with these cards. They also can be played early enough that you can figure out what you're up against and plan your next turns accordingly. If you Duress away your opponent's Collected Company on turn 1, you might see that they have Reflector Mage in hand. In that case, you know you don't want to use Hangarback Walker's ability, since it'll just get bounced right after. That kind of info is valuable because it only costs you 1 mana, which means it can be provided early, or if you cast it on turn 3, it still gives you the option to play a 2 CMC spell afterwards. Transgress the Mind will almost always have a valid target if your opponent has 3 or more cards in hand. Duress will likely have one if they have 4 or more cards in hand (though it varies depending on which decks you face).

While Pick the Brain always has a target if your opponent isn't sandbagging lands, it requires a heavy mana investment and doesn't give you information as quickly.

You also have to consider that most decks want to play out their creatures first and hit their curve. On turns 3-5, Duress is still a surprisingly decent draw since most decks hold on to noncreature spells until later. In the same way, Transgress the Mind is also likely to be a decent draw on turns 3-5 since their cards in hand will almost certainly be 3CMC+ at that time. Discard in any form is rarely good in the late game when both players are topdecking, for obvious reasons.

The delirium mode on Pick the Brain is its only real advantage over the other discard options, but you have to realize that Standard is a creature-based format and most decks will have 15 or more creatures in them. Even control decks typically have at least 8. The best case scenario for Pick the Brain is against a control deck where you can take all copies of one of their win conditions (e.g. all 4 Dragonlord Ojutai). But they can still win through other means like attacking with manlands or via a Jace emblem.

By the time you activate Delirium, the card you would have ideally targeted with it might be on the battlefield anyway and you might have to settle for spending 3 mana to take away all of some random card in their hand that your deck can handle anyway.

The average case with Pick the Brain, even assuming that you always cast it with delirium, is that you take their best card in hand, get rid of all the other copies in their deck and graveyard, then hold up 2 or so mana for a removal spell. That's assuming you cast it on turn 5 with delirium. But against a typical creature-based deck, from their perspective you've just paid 3 mana to do a 1-for-1 trade that didn't really interfere with their gameplan, which is to get board supremacy and attack for the win. You could have instead spent that 5 mana on something like The Gitrog Monster which they have to remove or else they lose board supremacy. And that removal will cost them a card anyway, but at least they have to spend the mana to cast it this time.

As long as you have enough removal, Declaration in Stone shouldn't be too much of a worry for you, actually. It is obviously a great removal spell, but your deck's gameplan is to stall the game and win via attrition. You have a deck that has pretty good topdecks, whereas aggro decks don't. The main reason Declaration in Stone is good against you is because it interferes with delirium and Den Protector. But if your opponent wants to trade 1-for-1 with you (removal spell for 2 drop), your deck can handle that. You even get a clue for free.

You can play around Declaration to some degree by choosing when to play your creatures and how much mana to spend on them. Play den protector only when you get to 5 mana, ideally. Never pay more than 2 mana for Hangarback Walker. Play Kalitas and Liliana with a removal spell on the same turn, if possible. Don't tap out for a creature to block lethal damage when you can cast a removal spell instead to stop the damage from being lethal. As long as you get some value out of your creatures before they get exiled, you're ok.

Neither Vessel nor Gather the Pack help attrition strategies in any way. They are more combo-oriented cards since they dig you deeper while looking for specific types of cards. If you were playing GB reanimator they would be more natural inclusions. Attrition strategies want to trade 1-for-1 with opponents as much as possible, avoid dying to aggro, and then beat their opponents via a combination of better topdecks and better mana sinks in the late game. Attrition decks are specifically designed to have these two qualities. It's why they play manlands (late game mana sink), graveyard recursion (den protector), and creatures that create a fast clock (mindwrack demon). Traverse the Ulvenwald is a new addition to this plan, in that it tutors up the most suitable late game creature exactly when you will likely have plenty of mana to cast it right away.

April 20, 2016 4:40 p.m.

michael921 says... #18

Odyssey, thank you so much for explaining the differences between the hand attack cards! I simply have never played this level of attrition-y deck before so I was massively unclear on what I should be building! I feel that the deck is getting pretty solidified at this point, and I'm not quite sure at what point I want to be turbo-ing out delirium. Mindwrack Demon I am finding often hasn't been getting me all the way there, getting only 3/4 card types possible. Is the vessel worth keeping around to ensure that I get all the way to delirium, or should I take it out? If i were to take it out, I'm thinking of either going +2 Transgress the Mind, or +1 Languish +1 To the Slaughter, or +2 Ruinous Path. Thoughts?

April 22, 2016 1:29 p.m.

Odyssey says... #19

What card types do you have the most trouble getting into your graveyard? If it's instants, the solution is to just add more instants in your deck, preferably ones that you can play in response to Mindwrack's trigger. If it's creature, you could consider a 1-of Fleshbag Marauder, since you already have the synergies with Hangarback and Liliana. You can always play Hangarback Walker for 0 to get 2 types into the GY.

If there is no specific card type that you've having trouble getting into the graveyard, then you probably just need to replace creatures with spells, since spells will always go to the graveyard. You need to be careful to not become too passive though, as you want to be able to apply some amount of pressure against ramp decks and control. As for your 3 potential repalcements for Vessel, it really depends on what you want your deck to be good against. The +1 Languish, +1 To the Slaughter option will make your deck slower but more controlling, +2 Ruinous Path will improve your late game by making your removal less conditional (though this option is worse against Archangel Avacyn  Flip decks than the former option), and +2 Transgress the Mind will help you against other midrange decks since you'll be able to strip them of their sources of card advantage like Ob Nixilis Reignited, Tireless Tracker, and Sorin, Grim Nemesis, while also giving you the potential to deal with enchantments in your main 60. You could also replace 2x Vessel with 2x Dead Weight if you wanted to shore up your deck against aggro decks (and decks that want to play Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  Flip on turn 2) while still having enchantments that (usually) go to the graveyard.

I've actually had some similar troubles with Mindwrack Demon in my Jund delirium list lately. The card type that's most frequently missing from my graveyard when I want to hit delirium is creature, and it's purely due to the amount of exile- and bounce-based removal in the format right now. I've gone down to 3 of him since I don't really want him in my opening hand most of the time, and since I can still tutor him up when I do hit delirium.

I've been considering a 1-of Sinister Concoction to hit delirium quicker and provide some removal. I've noticed that, at least in my deck, my hand is always full, so having to spend two cards to kill a creature is probably tolerable. It can't be recurred with Goblin Dark-Dwellers though, which is why I haven't added it yet. Your list doesn't have red, however, so Sinister Concoction might be worth looking at if you find that your hand stays pretty full. With 3 Den Protectors you can probably get whatever you discard back if you want it later.

April 22, 2016 2:20 p.m.

michael921 says... #20

I went with the Dead Weight over the other options to keep the number of enchantments that I have and be a little more resilient against aggro. I think I was weakest against aggro in my board, and had tools to deal with the other general archetypes.

I find that I'm actually running out of cards recently which is why I replaced Self-Inflicted Wound with Read the Bones, but it might make its way into my main board.

From watching the pro-tour, there seems to be less bounce and exile than I was initially thinking that there was in standard, especially a surprising lack of weenie white and CoCo, but I t could also just be different based on what the pros are playing. The environment after the tour will be very interesting.

April 22, 2016 3:55 p.m.

michael921 says... #21

Matt Higgs recently posted his takes on delirium on StarCityGames, link seen here. He has an aggro list that seems to be kind of similar on the general premise as mine, with some notable cards being Avatar of the Resolute and Pale Rider of Trostad. I know that mine is more midrange-y but would it be worth it to speed the deck up some? I could also reinforce the +1/+1 counter theme instead of the current general value feel. Thoughts?

April 28, 2016 9:16 p.m.

Odyssey says... #22

My initial impression is that Matt Higgs' decks are very conflicted.

His GB list seems to be built upon the assumption that 1 Traverse the Ulvenwald = 1 land, but this isn't the case. With only 18 actual lands, he has a 34% chance of having a 1 land hand in his opening 7, and a whopping 65% chance of having 2 or less lands in his opening 7. The odds get worse if you mulligan in that deck. Even if you plan on casting Traverse for another land, he has 8 green producing lands that enter tapped (as many as enter untapped in his list) so you have a 50/50 chance of casting T1 Traverse even if you assume you have it in your opening hand (and you'll only have 1 Traverse in your opening hand about 1/3 of the time in his list).

The end result is that his list will be slow because of mana issues, despite his lower curve, and when you finally do manage to get your manabase sorted out you'll enjoy the pleasure of casting a turn 3 Hangarback for 1, or an Obsessive Skinner with only a single sorcery in the graveyard. There are other issues, such as trying to simultaneously support turn 2 Grasp of Darkness and Avatar of the Resolute. Avatar was better in the last standard when you could reliably have a turn 1 untapped land in a 2 color deck to play a Servant of the Scale or Endless One, but with his manabase that isn't nearly as likely.

His Bant list has a bunch of low impact creatures and a conflict between the delirium and enchantment synergies. Kiora is also very weak in that list unless he has a Hangarback in play. Even then, if he plays Hangarback T2, adds a counter to it and plays a 2 drop turn 3, then Kiora on T4 lets him attack for 2 with a "vigilant" Hangarback but not add another counter. The mill mode on Kiora is ok in a delirium list, but it's the definition of durdling and the deck has enough durdling already (4x Vessel of Nascency, 4x Oath of Jace, 4x Hangarback Walker, 4x Traverse the Ulvenwald). At some point he has to take control of the game and start winning, and this list just doesn't do that.

I see the same issues with the manabase in the Bant list as well. He has too many double color pips in his 3 and 4 drops in a 3 color deck. Supporting multiple G, W, 1WW, 1GG, and 2WW spells might be possible in a 2 color deck, but in a 3 color deck there's no chance. Especially one with only 18 lands. It makes me think that he hasn't actually tested his list that much.

Given how slow his manabase in both decks is, you have to consider how these decks make up the tempo loss associated with that manabase in the late game. A typical midrange deck recovers and stabilizes with plays like Goblin Dark-Dwellers flashing back a removal spell, turn 4 Languish, or EOT Secure the Wastes for 4-6 followed by a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblem. But from what I can see, these two decks don't even have a late game. The GW list tops out at a (conditional) 4/3 reach+trample creature that's hard to cast. The Bant list tops out at Gideon and a conditional 4/4 hexproof+trample creature. None of that is very impressive.

It's ok to have unimpressive answers if you have good removal, because any body you turn sideways will eventually win you the game if your opponent's board is empty. However, both lists have weak removal that is only in there for the sake of enabling delirium.

In the GB list, Explosive Apparatus is weak even in limited; it's 4 mana for 2 damage. Dead Weight is fine, but it's inefficient in multiples and not a card you want to see more than one of, typically. His manabase is grasping at casting Grasp of Darkness on time, leaving two copies of Ultimate Price to pick up the slack.

The Bant list is even worse, only having 3 removal spells, all of which require white mana. I could see splashing blue for counterspells perhaps, but the enchantment theme is a distraction in this list. You can build Bant enchantments or Bant delirium, but not both with any consistency.

He runs less lands than a midrange deck but doesn't get any speed in return. These decks are just as slow as any 3 color midrange deck, but with a weaker top end and either inconsistent or minimal removal. Delirium is a slow mechanic to come online, so lowering the curve in a delirium list is a mistake. It gets stronger as the game goes on, so it should be focused on surviving the early game and having a strong mid-to-late game (delirium midrange decks generally can't compete with the late game power of control or ramp, so you have to be more aggressive against these types of decks, against others you can be more controlling).

April 28, 2016 11:12 p.m.

Zorynjaibro says... #23

I too, fell in love with Drana, Liberator of Malakir, I traded for a prerelease foil of her @ $32!

This deck seams pretty neat. I'd like to actually playtest it, but at first glance, I'd say the green tends to slow it down a little. Also, +1/+1 counters are great for taking creatures out of the range of Languish, but with the amount of removal being played that could easily wipe any pumped creature, I think more controlling cards suit this deck.

Flaying Tendrils kills a lot while leaving Drana, Liberator of Malakir and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, however I'm unsure if it disrupts Kali's zombie ability.

Visions of Brutality looks junky, but can handle big threats while fueling delirium if discarded or the creature dies.

Indulgent Aristocrat is good for adding counters (I know, Vampire only) and a sac outlet for Hangarback Walker.

Personally, I think mono-black is the way to go since there's some pretty heavy-hitters of all mana costs now. Check out my deck: Something's in the Heir. If Eldritch moon has any decent black vamps, I think Drana, Liberator of Malakir will need to go back to her roots! Vamps for life! (Or death?)

+1

May 22, 2016 6:25 p.m.

michael921 says... #24

Now that the entire spoiler is out, the cards that seem to benefit this deck the most are very similar to the ones I saw near the beginning of the spoilers. Here's a list of the potetial cards that I see and my current thoughts. I would love for input on these and discussion on what cards to replace!

  • Whispers of Emrakul being an easier to cast Hymn to Tourach is immensly powerful and I don't see much of a downside to this card. I just need to figure out what to replace.
  • Collective Brutality is a great way to enable delirium and offers just so much utility.
  • Gnarlwood Dryad is a great turn one play, especially against humans, as it can trade with any of their creatures, no matter how many thalia's liutentants are made. Getting up to a 3/3 is just a benefit.
  • Ishkanah, Grafwidow is the main reason that I'm reconsidering this deck, as it gives so many bodies, and is resilient to many forms of removal currently played. The synergy with Drana and Nissa is also part of its strength.
  • Permeating Mass is a nice alternative to the Dryad, for very much the same match up. It can also lead to some very confusing, interesting board states, which is also interesting as the permeating masses just take over every creature.
  • Grim Flayer is a very powerful card that enables delirium and becomes harder to block with delirium. It is the other reason why this deck is being reconsidered.
  • Mournwillow is a very strange card for golgari, but the effect is decently powerful in a token match up, and also works with nissa and drana.
  • Shrill Howler has a similar effect to Den Protector, and could be considered as a budget alternative.
  • Like I mentioned in my Odric deck, Chittering Host has a very powerful effect for the entire team, especially when I'm going decentlly wide.

Cards I referenced Show

If I missed any cards or need to reconsider any cards from previous sets please let me know! Especially, Odyssey, what do you think about this deck versus the Odric deck?

July 8, 2016 1:09 p.m.

clayperce says... #25

michael921,
Yeah finding room for those is gonna be tough.

A few thoughts, in no particular order ...

  • I'm kinda iffy on To the Slaughter ... not sure what the new meta will look like of course, but right now it seems like all the dangerous Planeswalkers are surrounded by tokens. Maybe no big deal to sac' another one :-)
  • I'm less sure about Mindwrack Demon too. Seems like he'd often be a dead card in yur hand during the Opening/Developing phase of the game.
  • Not that it matters for for finding card slots, but how bad does your mana get without Evolving Wilds? Not sure how many Thalia, Heretic Cathar we're going to see in a given FNM. But it doesn't take many!

Continued good luck (and good skill!) on the build!

July 8, 2016 10:52 p.m.

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