Vertigo

Really? Personally I really like both of those cards, and hadn't really considered removing them! But I suppose I probably wouldn't need both Devour Flesh and Far / Away so maybe I should swap that out. I like the trick of sacrificing my own Aberration for a bunch of life when I really need it, but it's probably better for me to just remove two of their creatures from the situation.

I'll see if I get some of those cards, then change things around a bit and give it a try!

In the meantime, I've changed things up a bit after getting some advice from a friend. I've decided to be a lot more aggressive, any feedback would be awesome!

Thanks

Hidden Strings > Hands of Binding

droslag

Are you sure...? I've thought about that a bit, and I'm really not convinced (no offence).

Hands of binding can keep two of my opponents creatures tapped for a whole turn cycle when I play it, if I play it right, then I can lock down whatever is the biggest threat to me if I have it ciphered to an Invisible Stalker

With Hidden Strings though, all I'd do is tap two of their creatures the turn I play it and then untap some lands or essentially give my creatures vigilance whenever I cast it from cipher.

I'm not saying it's a bad card, more that I don't think it's as good as Hands of Binding

Maybe I'm missing something, I really would love to hear your opinion on it!

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, thanks for the feedback

How are you faring against aggro decks Mike?

Fizzz

Well, I've not actually been able to test it against too many aggro decks, so I can't totally say. I feel like the slightly aggro-ish decks I have faced I've not done particularly well against. Why?

I feel that the deck needs a bit more removal on the main. Even if not facing an aggro deck, that removal spell could potentially get rid of that annoying critter :)

Fizzz

I think you're right, it's something that definitely feels like it's missing. I have Death's Approach in the sideboard, is there anything you'd recommend I swap that for?

Or maybe an entirely different removal spell? I'd really appreciate a second opinion on this one because I've genuinely been thinking about for a while now!

Thanks!

After some thinking I believe that Pilfered Plans is the card to take out for Far / Away it is the only non-cipher able mill spell to go with your slightly more aggressive approach and the extra removal of Devour Flesh would be more helpful against aggro decks anyway.

Vertigo

Ok, sounds reasonable. I'll try swapping Pilfered Plans for Far / Away and see what happens, thanks for the input!

I find hidden strings has more flexibility . Can tap blocker so you can mill with mirko, or attack with abberation, rogues passage works too, or you can untap them for blocks or untap two mana to drop a mill card at end step or open up for counter spells. Or just tap their mana if you smell a counter spell coming then play what you want end step

droslag

I suppose what you said does make sense, it certainly has flexibility written all over it. Personally though, I use Hands of Binding as semi-removal, to stop their creatures from both blocking and attacking, which Hidden Strings doesn't do.

However, I do like the idea of untapping land for instants etc. It mainly depends on what I have on the field at the time, but I suppose at least putting Hidden Strings in the sideboard couldn't hurt, especially since I've recently actually moved Death's Approach into mainboard.

I'll give it a try, and thanks for your feedback!

Another thing , i do not think you should run a full set or mind grind. They are just too expensive if you want to mill a lot and for sure milling 7 or 8 is less risky and expensive. Unless you can stall for very long and in that case i suggest fog bankd. And possibly tamiyo, becuase tamiyo stall A lot and she can get you card advantage. Plus her ult wins games easily with mill. And you should really be running jace, mem adept. And his phantasms aswell. 1 mana for 5,5 flyer late game is great. In my opinion mind grind is a great win condition/ topdeck. alot like rakdos return. So I would run 2 max. Vamp. Night hawk is solid but he doesnt quite fit in with mill :P

droslag

Although it doesn't quite look like it at the moment, I'm not running Jace's Phantasm because I'm trying to stay within the RTR block. Vampire Nighthawk is M13, so it shouldn't really be in here, but I put them in because of a previous commenter, mainly because he acts as a very good deterrent for people attacking me. They are, however, only a placeholder at the moment for Wight of Precinct Six which I have arriving soon.

I know that the Phantasm is a really good card for this sort of deck, but I really am trying to keep within RTR (apart from invisible stalker, who I may still take out)

With Mind Grind though, I think I agree, and I'll take one of them out.

I'm working on a budget, so I can't really afford any planeswalkers, though I know that both Jace and Tamiyo would be pretty awesome in this deck.

Thanks again for the suggestions! If you think of anything else, please don't hesitate to say!

That's true a lot of awesome cards are going out of standard (my zombie deck :'( ) lol , but jace is not, he is being re-printed in m14 so i think he is a good investment. I would.only run 2 or 3. Also the wights are amazing . And I Honestly I don't like deaths approach. It's good for 1 mana but you can get 2 mana kill spells that work at instant which is better . Like ultimate price or maybe murder . Unsummon is good too

Another good card, crippling blight. So they cannot block

you dont need for Consuming Aberration it takes 5 turns at the minimal to get so having 4 seems a little odd because you arent going to be dropping a ton of spells as soon as it gets out. drop some of those creatures into a combination of the Consuming Aberration , Jace's Phantasm , Wight of Precinct Six , and some Invisible Stalker s. this will give you all the board pressence youll need and the stalker will let you run up more cipher cards like 4 Paranoid Delusions and 4 Hands of Binding remember you need to mill before Death's Approach becomes useful so to help you out early run some Tragic Slip s and consider some Grisly Spectacle s for later on as well as a Jace, Memory Adept for fast milling. since the goal of this deck is to mill, dont even bother with Ultimate Price and use Devour Flesh . i'd also suggest mainboarding 4 Psychic Strike s. you want to be able to make sure your opponent cant do anything and let your milling pick up. a turn 3 play that can do either is great.

Nightstlkr

I totally get where you're coming from with your suggestions - and appreciate them - though I have a few comments:

First off, I think you may be right with the 4 Consuming Aberration I probably don't need 4, but in a deck with no card-draw, I want to ensure I get one per game, as it's essentially a whole win condition in itself. However, I can always try removing one for another Devour Flesh or something.

Second, I tried Invisible Stalker in here and didn't like it at all. Ciphering a couple of Paranoid Delusions was hardly worth the space he took up, and Hands of Binding I've removed completely (if you look at the comments above, essentially because I'd rather kill their creatures than just tap them).

Death's Approach is a late game killer, I'll almost always save it and use Devour Flesh or Ultimate Price first, by the time it comes out I pretty much always have milled enough for it to work perfectly using Breaking and Mind Grind

Personally, I don't like Tragic Slip as it's far too situational for my liking. And frankly, Grisly Spectacle is an awful card. 4 mana for removal that usually only mills about 5 max is useless to me.

Jace, Memory Adept is expensive, this is at heart a budget deck.

And Psychic Strike is sideboarded out for a reason. I had a playset in the mainboard, and it went terribly. It's very weak mill and I honestly just didn't enjoy playing with it.

Having said all that, I really like the thought you've put into all this, and I really am up for being persuaded to change my mind on these. Sorry if I seem like a jerk shutting down a lot of your suggestions, thanks for the feedback!

youre not being a jerk, i made a more control all, mill later deck so thats just my perspective.

your first point: Thought Scour 'nough said. it gives you more options for milling and a turn one play, plus its instant speed. thats just a small way to start milling early.

second: remember ciphers=spells. spells=aberration goes milling. yes, killing is almost always more effective unless they have undying or something, but realize that it gets rid of graveyard interactions you might have. I would /rather/ knock something out with a Devour Flesh , but tapping down 2 creatures turn 1 and getting spell triggers for aberration becomes really helpful.

third: it does work late game, but realize that Deathrite Shaman and cards like junk that use the graveyard might make the effectiveness awkward. its always easy to chump block and the biggest threat with a deck like this is early game rush decks. tragic slipping a Champion of the Parish before a Burning-Tree Emissary brings a Lightning Mauler with him and takes you down to 13 turn 2. also a thought for your mind grind is to use liliana (i cant recall which one) thats ultimate that gives the emblem that essentially turns each swamp into 4.

Grisly Spectacle can be hit or miss with games but its just another instant speed removal that gives a small benefit for an extra colorless from Murder and i also use Rewind so it taps out perfectly for it.

i didnt see the budget i apologize, i try and be a budget player and work off what i draft/win off FNM, but i got lucky with back-to-back domri's on GTC prerelease

the thing with psychic strike is it essentially does the same thing as Away or a Murder at the same cost (Assuming you counter a creature) but it adds a little bit of a stronger touch because of any permanent being targeted and a very small mill that can add up, especially if you hit a land.

if you want look at my dimir decks. one was my budget version minus the jace and catacombs my friend gave me, and the other is just a test deck atm as i trim it down and shape it up.

i like your deck. although i've done some playtesting with Far / Away its handy sometimes, but for 5 mana cost to get rid of two creatures is pretty steep. id appreciate thoughts on my deck your thoughts are now forefit

Nightstlkr

Ok, Thought Scour seems a pretty good idea, it'll perfectly get my Jace's Phantasm to a 5/5 if I play Breaking on turn 2 (and at instant speed, it could be a pretty cool trick to make them take that extra 4 damage). I like it, though I only own one at the moment, I'll look into getting more.

On your second point, I know all about the ciphering counting for Consuming Aberration and for a while that was kind of the whole point of this deck. However, I tried to make this deck a lot more early game recently, and in a lot of games the milling basically just makes my creatures big enough to kill my opponent. The reason I removed a lot of the cipher cards is that those extra triggers for the aberration weren't actually doing very much, and if I want to make contact with my opponent with any of my creatures late game, they're all pretty much big enough to kill them at that point anyway, having that extra kill spell usually helps to free up enough space for me to get through. Also, I now can't really find any space in this deck for Invisible Stalker to effectively cipher.

I am also planning on putting in 4 Artful Dodge to finish with my Consuming Aberration

Still not a huge fan of Grisly Spectacle (when I can kill for 2 mana with Ultimate Price or Doom Blade come M14) but I can see that Tragic Slip might be pretty sweet, I'll look into it!

dbrannon

I like Far / Away and usually only use Away as a turn 3 Devour Flesh without the life gain. I like that later game though it can be super effective with the 5 mana, so I'll probably keep it.

I liked the look of your deck, it's more traditional mill, and it gets a +1 from me!

Thanks for the feedback guys!

good luck getting a phantasm, thought scour, and breaking all in 2 turns :P but turn 1/2 phantasm and scour would make the next turn 5/5 hard to see so that might be your better route even though as far as mana tapping it isnt the best.

i see what youre saying with how you built your deck. the milling works two ways: buff up your spells and slam in before theyre milled out, or have a backup win condition.I guess you would have to change up alot to go for the stalker-cipher route, lnstead of Artful Dodge think about a Rogue's Passage

the more i think about it, Ultimate Price seems a little counter-productive. youre trying to finish the game up by milling a little and slamming in, and to get you to that point you give them life. another thought for Tragic Slip is going versus control decks who uses AEtherling as their wincon. tragic slip can threaten a smaller pump or causes them to bounce and not have him do any damage. bouncing him on your turn isnt super helpful.

Nightstlkr

Haha I didn't say it perfectly, but I meant Phantasm turn 1, Breaking turn 2, then swing with the Phantasm turn 3 and Thought Scour at instant speed into a 5/5.

I already have a single Rogue's Passage and as people pointed out to me before, Artful Dodge is a much cheaper alternative (considering that Rogue's Passage essentially costs 5) and I don't want to put too many colorless lands into this deck, as that would make Lazav, Dimir Mastermind and Nightstalker very hard to cast.

I assume you meant Devour Flesh when talking about giving them life, it's true that it is a little counter-productive, but it's quite flexible. I can use it early to help against aggro, later as essentially a +1/+1 for a Wight of Precinct Six or in very tight situations (I've done this only once, but I won me the game) I can sac my own Consuming Aberration for a LOAD of life haha

Very true about Tragic Slip the sorcery speed of Death's Presence is no good against an AEtherling though I haven't actually faced any of them yet. I may look into getting a playset of Tragic Slip for my sideboard then maybe, or I'll try them main and see how that goes!

Thanks again for the advice, if you have a suggestion as to what I should swap Artful Dodge and Thought Scour in for, I'd be grateful!

I know what you meant, I was just messing with you.

The think with Rogue's Passage over Artful Dodge is that you probably won't be using it until you have your Consuming Aberration out or a Wight of Precinct Six pretty strong. And that probably won't happen in your first 4 land drops. This means that you'll be getting worth out of that land and not have it sit in your hand waiting for you to essentially get more land to win.

Ah good thing to test with the slips Ustinovust think to yourself everytime you have a Death's Approach in your hand, how much more/less helpful would a Tragic Slip have been. Obviously the meta is different city to city but the formula for a true control deck is 90% control, 10% other wincon. Maybe it's a jace/drown yard to mill. Or Aethetling. Or some other strong high powered creature. But a popular one is AEtherling so 4 of those essentially counters their win enough for you to push (hopefully)

As far as what to remove.. Right off the top you have 6 cards at 5 mana. Theoretically you're getting one in your hand 2-3 turns before you can cast. Personally I'd only run Consuming Aberration for the fact that when you get Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker out, when he can swing you can just Mind Grind for the same amount gaurenteed. I think for your deck the Paranoid Delusions will be unnecessary since you have a 2-card combo to kill 10 anyway. So between those that should he your 4 Thought Scour your mana conversion after that should be enough reason to drop your 5th mama fixing with Dimir Guildgate and the drownyard is great to start killing them at turn 4.. But killing at 5 might be better. You could also probably get away with only running 3 since you don't /need/ it right away. Maybe turns 7+

*sent from phone so pardon the typos

Nightstlkr

Haha fair enough

I get your point with the Rogue's Passage and I'd thought the same thing, however like I said before, adding any more colorless lands could cause some problems for me... I may swap out Nephalia Drownyard for a couple more Rogue's Passage as I rarely find myself using the drownyards very much (can't remember getting them out at all for a while, and when I do I usually have better uses of my mana). Though looking at your comment maybe I shouldn't be removing them, so I'll think about that some more...

I'll do what you said about Tragic Slip and see if having that rather than Death's Presence would be more helpful.

I think you're probably right about Mirko Vosk, when he comes out he's often not very helpful, and Paranoid Delusions has been doing absolutely nothing for me lately, so I'll take it out. Adding Thought Scour seems like a good idea, though for now I only have one of them and won't be able to get my hands on any for a week or so.

Thanks for the advice, I do have a couple of AEtherling that I could potentially put in here, but to be honest that just seems like I'm completely throwing the milling out the window!

Swapping Rogue's Passage in for Nephalia Drownyard keeps you the same why do you want to keep them? In all honesty for how your deck is set up, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind might not even be a great card for your deck since you're relying on thought scour, mind grind, or breaking to mill turn 5. So instead that could be a card you take out instead of a mirko.

Just remember board state interactions change alot. Sometimes you'll be jumping to trade out and slip another creature so it's hard to keep it perfect, but you'll find a trend. Maybe even run 2/2 and side the other 2/2

If you run AEtherling then you should be straight up control. Because cards like that are only good when your opponent hadn't done anything Md still can't do anything all game. Not when you're competing boards.