Ohthenoises -

RE: Approach of the Second Sun

1) Relying on Grand Arbiter staying on the field is a dangerous proposition.

2) Tapping 6/7 mana for a spell that does literally nothing useful in a competitive game is a sure-fire way to lose to the next player way before drawing it again is ever a concern. Competitive games are fast, and you're often the deck with the best suite of answers at the table; tapping yourself out at Sorcery speed is tantamount to suicide. The deck doesn't run Consecrated Sphinx for the same reason, and the Sphinx is a lot better than sun.

3) You very, very, very rarely Helm/RIP without going infinite first. Going infinite is safer, easier to achieve and harder for your opponents to successfully respond to. I'll update the description to make this clearer.

4) RE: 'and/or' - Cheers, hadn't noticed what I'd written (description is oooold), will update the error soon.

5) For competitive games, yes, it really, really is. There are far, far easier ways of winning the game than that spell. I'm not saying it's not cool; I'm not saying you won't steal one or two games with it (and it'll be funny as hell), I am saying it is not a card that you should ever play if your only goal is to win games against other competitive players.

TheDevicer

:)

Currently I have Tazri FC built so I'm reallly aware of how fast the format can be (thanks Demonic Consultation naming Food Chain at the guy on the right's T2 endstep)

What would you suggest for someone wanting to play GAAIV without wanting to get Power Artifact? I have the rest but half a Bill to get PA is pretty unattractive, any suggestions on filler for just that card?

Ohthenoises It's a powerful card; I'd possibly also look at cutting Grim Monolith without it, at that loses a lot of power without the combo. I'd drop in an Etherium Sculptor to improve your Top/Future Sight/Key combo, JtMS, or Muddle the Mixture. All solid calls. Dispel is great for dealing with Flash Hulk and AdNaus.

I've seen very good things from Telepathy recently, and the other GAAIV pilots I respect are starting to warm to Narset Transcendent - lots of good cards to replace it with, but an auto-include if you can pick one up for cheap.

I'm so fucking pissed. I wrote a fuckton only for TO to log me out for some reason. Ughhhh. Anyway. Here's a VERY condensed version of what I think about BigLupu's list after running my own variants for some time.

• The combo base needs work. I only like helm if your meta necessitates RIP.
• Power+lith sucks and is redundant with rings+other lith
• future sight is clunky and is the 3rd enchantment-based combo here.
• Based on my playing, moving to paradox engine is worth considering as you get more artifact-based tutors
• Serra Ascendant is questionable

I know this is incredibly brief, but losing my og thoughts tilted me. Let me know what you think about those ideas and I'll probably expand upon them.

Oh, and I think BigLupu's list hasn't been explored enough. It's been ages since I've seen decent GAAIV lists that are current.

TheDevicer

Thanks for your comments man, although a shame about the deletion. Firstly, what do you mean by 'hasn't been explored enough?' Do you mean it's untested? sub-optimal? I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Secondly, and more importantly - the heart of the matter, the deck critique - I've heard a lot of talk about a shift to a Paradox Engine fuelled list; and I'm certainly not adverse to re-tuning the deck for testing (the deck has gone through so many 'final' iterations it's beyond a joke). What would be the heart of the combo then if you remove Help/Rip? (RIP is good in the meta, but where possible, this deck looks to 'take on all challengers', having as much game againsts DD, FC, BW, CVT etc. rather than focusing on beating two or three archetypes).

Serra Ascendant is actually on the chopping block at the moment, currently in the deck as a hangover from previous iterations. I'm in agreement that the deck's win condition has forever been its weakest aspect; and finding a solid way to consistently close out games is high up on my priorities list.

I'd be interested to see what your revised combo suite looks like, and I'd happily review and go for a few weeks of testing. I've got some reservations about some of your card evaluations; but I'll wait until I've seen what you'd cut and add. If it helps your evaluation, a Timetwister has just been acquired for the deck.

Ok, so I'm a bit less tilted atm. Let me give you a bit of backstory for me so you'll understand where I'm coming from. My meta is a private group made out of 3 core members and rotating faces. I myself and super competitive but often have to play less spikey decks because of whoever is at the table. Nonetheless, about half a year ago, my meta was pretty darn competitive. It's since gone down, so I haven't iterated a ton on GAAIV since he's far too strong atm.

Still, I began crafting GAAIV 5 months ago. At that time, I was asking around the TO tier list and generally looking for good decks in places like r/cEDH, discord, etc. No one legit professed to play arbiter or know a lot about him. It's weird, but I just wasn't able to find good decks. Just idiots claiming to have the best versions of arbiter while jamming Decree of Silence in their decks...

Anyway, that's what I meant by not explored. Any and all decent lists where almost carbon copies of Lupu's list and all discussion around the archetype invariably pointed people toward the deck. It's not that I think he's a bad player or a bad deck builder. I just think that this is a case of accepted credentials by the community that led to some massive stagnation.

I saw Paradox Engine spoiled and legit no one thought to try it out in GAAIV lists? Oh c'mon.

Anyways...

With the exception of a Karador boonweaver list, the only guy regularly running lists where yards were important 5 months ago in my meta was me, so that's why RIP+helm is something I deem to be kinda meta-based. I think it's still a fine combo and quite likely to be a correct inclusion if you're trying to make a general list, but it's worth contemplating axing it since it's only included because one card just happens t be a great hate card. I think it might even be worth dropping altogether if you can run more artifact-based tutors to go get Grafdigger's Cage or Relic of Progenitus. I can attest that using tutors to seek out hate cards (Cursed Totem in my case) is pretty solid and often leads to better results than seeking pieces.

I dunno. My experience playing GAAIV has sometimes left me frustrated at the sheer number of combo pieces that have no overlap I've had to slot in the deck. Seriously, after a point, I got so angry at seeing Grim Monolith that I couldn't justify running the combo. It's redundant with the other monolith combo. With fewer combos, you get to have more tutors and reactive cards. The overall deck quality rises as a result.

With regard to paradox engine, I truly believe it's at least worth considering. I've only started really working with it after my meta took a dive, so I can't speak with authority on the matter, but I think it's pretty legit. With it, you get overlap with scepter. I also REALLY like it as an absolute magnet for removal. I like to think of rings+lith+top as the primary combo of the deck and utterly LOVE that it's all artifact based. Seriously, Whir of Invention is fucking amazing and you need to run it if you go more artifact-centric.

And yeah, I thought that timetwister's pretty much a given in the deck, but I said nothing even in my og post as I though budget was a consideration and you had spiral.

I'm really sorry I can't speak more authoritatively on the matter. I had originally intended to push GAAIV tech a little further 5 months ago but I no longer feel comfortable talking about him too much although I'm still probably among the top 10 people in the world for having wasted time thinking about arbiter or something. lol. All I can really give you are my impressions after playing him a ton and then backing off for some time.

I hope that helps.

Please continue innovation! I have been searching around the interwebs and I've found exactly what TheDevicer said about everything pointing to Lupu and nothing else. His is literally the only list I see mentioned. I only found yours because of tappedout's "decks like this one" on Lupu's list.

There are no decks exploring GAAIV and pushing the envelope. My issue with Helm+RIP is that it only kills one person without other pieces so you can't tutor for 2 pieces and call it a day. You've gotta either tutor up a draw engine or find the rest to complete the combo. (Or more importantly if I draw RIP I can't just tutor for Helm and win. I would need to tutor for other stuff first.)

Engine seems like a good way to take the acceleration and crank through your deck. I'm not really sure TBH.

Ohthenoises & TheDevicer

Thrown together in half an hour after a few beers - but here it is:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/paradox-experimental-grand-arbiter/

Win conditions are: Infinite mana (I kept the Power Artifact, tighter focus on artifacts makes it better, more tutors for both halves Muddle the Mixture is back to help us find Power Artifact into draw deck and then you can aetherflux your opponents to death, or stroke them all to death (recycling with twister). More streamlined control suite, some grittier hate. Likely lots of issues with it as-is - but as a baseline to work from I don't think it's too bad. Let me know your thoughts.

TheDevicer - tagging you here, as this is once again the most up-to-date list I'm running. WIP list(s) deleted.

This version of the deck has a lot of flex slots. The win conditions are so condensed that you have a tonne of room for meta customisation and cards to suite style. Con sphinx and Power Artifact are two cards I'm currently contemplating adding back into the list. I've always hated Rings of Brighthearth and I'm glad to be rid of it. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the current list.

Honestly, I've been thinking of moving in this direction as well. All of this seems insanely on point. I can't really think of anything I'd change aside from minor things. Maybe a little curious about Relic of Progenitus over Rest in Peace. Easier tutor target and contributes to artifact synergies, but overall weaker card. I'd also consider Prismatic Lens over Mind Stone.

Has my stamp of approval as best arbiter list on the web by a long shot. Nice work mate.

Hey guys!

I didn't check on this site for quite some time - now i'd like to respond and comment on your list, deadmanwaltzing, cause I also did some playtesting and changes to mine. I'll create a deck soon to also show you my current list.

Last time I asked a lot of questions regarding some cardchoices. Maybe you didn't feel like answering to all of these, so this time I'm gonna just outline the cardchoices that are different in my list from yours. Also, I'd like to tell you that I agree with most of your decisions regarding your development of a competitive Arbiter-List and that I respect you as the more experienced player in this regard.

I started playing EDH about a year ago in a quite competitive playgroup (General Tazri, Teferi, Derevi, Prosh, meanwhile also a Thrasios/Tymna list, a Keranos, a Rashmi and a Kaho which is very fun to play against). Starting with Brago I shifted to GAA4 because it felt like my Brago was always a bit slow in comparism to the others at the table... With GAA4 everyone is frowning at your Commander, hoping that it doesn't come down in T1-2 :) also I do like the control-playstyle and the interaction it provides.

Well, the different cardchoices in my list are:

1. Gitaxian Probe
2. Spell Pierce | I don't run Flusterstorm
3. Prismatic Lens
4. Sphere of Resistance | I don't run Torpor Orb
5. Reshape | Don't have Transmute Artifact yet
6. Whir of Invention
7. Blue Sun's Zenith | I don't run Sphinx's Revelation but not 100% sure
8. Thirst for Knowledge | I don't run Manifold Insights
9. Glen Elendra Archmage | Instead of Wrath of God because I feel like non-creature spells are a lot stronger and both the Yisan-Deck and the Derevi-Deck aren't present in my playgroup anymore
10. Consecrated Sphinx still playtesting - current experiences: good in midrange- and, prism-matchups. Actually awfully slow in most games against combo or combo/control

Cards I don't run from your list are:

• Into the Roil
• Relic of Progenitus
• Mystic Gate
• and Mana Drain & Timetwister which are obvious inclusions but I couldn't afford them yet.

I currently think about how to get rid of Staff of Domination because it feels clunky lots of times when drawn to early and Sensei's Divining Top also does his job together with Scepter. I will playtest an Academy Ruins for the case that Top gets countered. Also Lotus Petal might be good in matchups like General Tazri and Thrasios/Tymna where they are quite slowed with Arbiter in play and you want fast mana as soon as possible...

Best regards!

ToshiroU

Yo buddio, let's have a look shall we:

1. Gitaxian Probe - What're you hoping to actually achieve with it? Storm decks run it as a free draw w/ doomsday, free spell that cantrips whilst generating info about what the control players are up to, why this over something like Opt for you - or something higher impact? I just don't see where this fits into your overall strategy. I'd rather run Telepathy over this and I'm not a Telepathy fan. I'd just want something higher impact.
2. Spell Pierce - Sure, meta call - totally fine.
3. Prismatic Lens - Yeah, filtering for coloured mana when you're going off w/ Paradox is hella good in certain scenarios. Fine inclusion.
4. Sphere of Resistance - Personally hate Sphere, we run a pseudo turbo xerox gameplan, a lot of cheap cantrips and mana rocks, Sphere is super bad for these, great if your meta is all fast combo and food chain though. Decent silver bullet.
5. Reshape is fine. You're gonna love Transmute when you get it. Paradox all day erry day.
6. Whir of Invention - Yeah fine. Pretty 'okay' feeling card when I've played it; very infrequently been impressed by it, but always at least decent.
7. Blue Sun's Zenith - I mean, I guess. Rev is really good w/ lifegain and the double GAA4 benefit. Honestly don't see the 'can function as a win condition' as much as a pro considering how the deck currently operates.
8. Thirst for Knowledge Yeah, I used to run it myself, Manifold is getting cut actually too actually.
9. Glen Elendra Archmage u wot m9? Nah. I'm not down with this. I'd suggest introducing a Counterbalance package if you want repeatable countermagic. 6 mana for double negate is super clunky. Bad! Stop!
10. Consecrated Sphinx - Yup. Top banana that card, in the right matchup. Sometimes a man just needs haymakers.

Overall a fine list, but yeah, not liking 1, 7, 9 and iffy on 4. I'd also suggest another piece of spot removal if you're dropping wrath. Reality Shift is tutorable with Muddle, Merchant Scroll and functions as a Paradox/Scepter wincon by exiling people's entire libraries (providing they have at least one valid target).

I've found the above to be true.

Reality shift is also ballin if you're living in a creature heavy meta as it's relevant af as a standalone and functions as a reliable finisher as well.

The hell is that art for him? It looks amazing.

Godhead_Initiated - It's an alter done by MIB alters. You can contact him on Facebook for commissions.

Any updates?

TheDevicer - Miracles variant has legs, really, really does. Still the same core; but Future Sight combo is back in, but this time - it's less trying to assemble that one particular combo; now it seeks to assemble any combination of Counterbalance lock, Fun with Paradox Engine and the Miracles themselves. I get it - deck looks like hot garbage. I highly recommend giving it a go.

What are your miracles? Terminus but also turn plus entreat? Does idylic then make the cut? I've been having more success with rings monolith mostly because tutoring strictly for artifacts speeds things up.

Hey i dont understand something about your blind obedience. He has a mixed mana as the extort with white and black, so why are you playing it because i guess and ive never seen off color of the general in the deck so "my opinion" woulb be that you cant play it cuzz it has the black symbol in the ability box !!?? Could you explain me?!

doctmcgreen that is reminder text, not a factor for colour identity.

So you are saying that i could play soulfire grand master in a boros commander even if there is blue "in the reminder text" ??? And what is the reminder text? Because extort is a ability even if its on a enchantment or a creature ! I don't understand what i understand is that the color identity of blind obedience is white and black and soulfire grand master is jeskai so i couldnt be able to play the master in a boros edh so why blind obedience could?? Magic and his rules!! So frustrating ahahaha thx for the answer !

Soulfire grandmaster has an activated ability. It's part of the card. Blind Obedience doesn't actually have a black mana symbol on the card itself. It's only there via the reminder texts that lets you know how extort works.

The way the official rule is worded is as follows

A card's colour identity is its colour plus the colour of any mana symbols in the card's rules text. A card's colour identity is established before the game begins, and cannot be changed by game effects.

That may not be super specific to a lot of people, so the committee further elaborates:

Reminder text is not included in the colour identity of a card.

Hope that clears up the issue a little bit. basically reminder text isn't considered to be a part of the card. It's stuff that appears after key words inside parentheses.

Dear deadman and Mr. Deciever,

first I have to appologize. I wanted to share my complete list with you but I just didn't do that. At least I started to create the deck at tappedout, so I'm looking forward to post it here...

Now - my main intention for this comment is to start a little conversation about the new set Dominaria and specifically about 3 cards from that set:

Unwind

Damping Sphere

Teferi, Hero of Dominaria

What do you think about those as an inclusion to your list and in general what is your approach with the Arbiter 'in-game' right now? Control with a slowly build softlock? Value-control with a few haymakers and a combo-finish? I think it would be really interesting (and also beneficial for progress-reasons) to analyse by which turn we win and how. With 'winning' I'd also include locking the table out of the game...