Eloniel

Soubria seems like an excellent include! Great synergies as you've listed (particularly relevant for me since I run Master of Cruelites as a win con) but can also refill your hand in a pinch. I think it's definitely worth testing.

alexjustdoit Those are some fair points re Wound Reflection. My list runs a lot of goad mechanics and other spells such as Duelist's Heritage which encourage my opponents to swing at each other. So in my build I think Wound Reflection works a bit better than in others.

I also think that if you run enough cheap threats that your opponents will likely be using a lot of their removal early game, leaving the door ajar for your heavy duty stuff a little later in the game. For instance; I never play Sunforger early unless I absolutely have to, as it is far more likely that my opponents will have removal ready when they have a full hand and haven't removed anything else yet. Its a 3 mana spell but it's also one of my most consistent avenues to a win, so I can't afford to have it exiled or destroyed the moment I play it.

Older20

Agreed on the timing around playing Sunforger. The meta I play in is unlikely to use removal on anything that is not very threatening, and my cheap early threats are by definition unthreatening, so usually removal comes out once people are actually making moves, myself included. I try to bait it out, but they're usually smart enough for that. For example, no one is countering my Gifted Aetherborn or removing my Weathered Wayfarer haha, but they definitely will hold onto it for a Sunforger or Gisela.

Low hand sizes and some removal already being burned definitely helps threats stick later on. So does Volrath's Stronghold which has been doing work for me lately, I think I will add it to the permanent list. For example in my most recent game, Gisela kept getting removed, and I recasted her nearly every turn all while swinging with Serra Ascendant.

Would you mind giving me some more details on the decision to include Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder, I traded for one a few months back but have never slotted him into my version of the deck, outside of enabling one shots with Dark Depths and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight he doesn't seem to do much for the deck to me, hoping you can shed light on my ignorance.

Thanks

Openil

He’s great for the life gain if nothing else. As I’ve upgraded my deck from the budget version it used to be, I’ve found how clutch those hits of life gain are to our eventual survival. Yes, he’s great with Marit Lage and Gisela, but honestly who is blocking a double strike deathtoucher with lifelink? The Queen will get some damage through and give us some life with him. He’s not a bad attacker on his own either.

Thanks for that, I think I, along with most commander players, undervalued the life gain.

Have you ever considered Brought Back? It is sunforgable if key pieces get removed like Wound Reflection or Solemnity, can get you back Sunforger if it is already in hand, and can be a rampant growth with some early fetches like Prismatic Vista. Would love to get your input!

A new interesting card: Nine Lives Enchantment 1WW Rare Hexproof If a source would deal damage to you, prevent that damage and put an incarnation counter on Nine Lives. When there are nine or more incarnation counters on Nine Lives, exile it. When Nine Lives leaves the battlefield, you lose the game.

https://i0.wp.com/mtgazone.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/16absznmy2551.png

Eloniel - my only issue with Nine Lives is if someone wipes the board of permanents, or otherwise removes it without targetting it / causes you to sac it, you are absolutely hosed. And for what? We already have 3 (4 kinda) pieces that combine in any pair to keep you from dying to damage.

The risk seems very, very high.

Openil - someone mentioned that card a while back, and I though about it a little, but you make some very good points.

I have played Replenish in the past which fills a similar role, but Brought Back may be a bit better for us. Waiting to crack your fetchlands until T2, then casting Brought Back is pretty spicy as well.

I think I will try it out, thanks for the suggestion.

What's your thoughts on Angelic Ascension the additional mana over Swords to Plowshares is big but it also hits planeswalkers and is still able to be gotten with Sunforger. the flyer may be awkward with monarch but i feel like most of the time giving your opponent a 4/4 flyer is better than giving them a land. It's also not impossible to use it on a late game Serra Ascendant that has lost it's buff as a rattlesnake blocker seems at least decent.

I think Angelic Ascension is a pass for me. I can just see someone getting spiteful with that 4/4 and us having to find a way to deal with it. I would run Swords or Path over this. If you're looking for another of this type of effect Condemn isn't too bad. In a different vein I like Generous Gift - you still give them a creature but it has no evasion which makes it much easier to manage and Gift hits anything. With out deathtouchers they are more like't ti send the elephant elsewhere which is good news of us.

Openil - if you need more removal that can hit planeswalkers, Generous Gift, Anguished Unmaking, and Chaos Warp are all better than Angelic Ascension. Beyond that you could try Despark which hits a lot of planeswalkers that get run in EDH. Keep in mind Boros Charm can also hit planeswalkers for 4, and we can also push thru some damage with evasive creatures directed at planeswalkers.

Seabody & alexjustdoit thanks for sharing your thoughts, much appreciate, I was not familiar with Condemn to be honest, in some ways that even seems better than swords.

I wasn't especially hot on Angelic Ascension but have seen some hype for it and was keen to get your inputs. Thank you again.

Despark has been a house for me. In games where I get a Sunforger, Mistveil Plains combo going it's often one of the spells I'll loop.

I'm a big fan of Despark, I run it over Utter End and would consider cutting Anguished Unmaking before it.

Seabody I've looked through your version of the deck, it's a bit closer in value to mine, although i don't own any fetch lands yet, out of curiosity what are you using Repercussion to achieve? I own one but have never considered it for this deck.

Openil - combos & synergies section, under Playing this Deck

Repercussion is used as a win condition for us. It's been a fairly recent addition but so far seems really good. By comboing it with Blasphemous Act or Arcbond we can deal massive amounts of damage to everyone at once. Since those two cards are good for us anyway as wipes there is little downside to also include Repercussion as a way to close out the game.

With how the new rules work with Oubliette would you consider running it? I believe it doesn't give your opponent a chance to put their commander in the command zone which can cripple a lot of decks.

Openil - yeah, there's no denying it can be very effective removal. I would consider it, but I'm not sure it is needed (for me) currently.

I opened a Land Tax in a double masters pack, thinking about adding it but I only run 9 basics so thought it wasn't worth it, now i notice you are only running 6 and still include it, do you not find you run out of basics to get with it?

6 has been fine for me. You don't really get the crazy deck thinning that running a ton of basics will get you, but 6 is more than enough to ensure your land drops for the game.

alexjustdoit That makes sense - I imagine having a Scroll Rack helps a lot as well, I think I will add for now, just need to figure out a cut!

I'll need to take some time to sort through things here, but I like the layout.

I imagine you want to wait fro full spoilers before making nay comments but the white and black monarch enchantments spoiled today are really interesting to me, Court of Ambition and not sure on the translated white name, both act as wincons if you can get into a Phyrexian Unlife + Solemnity situation, and would love to hear your thoughts on them.