why not Conjurer's Closet instead of Deadeye Navigator? i know you can flicker in response to a removal (while with closet you can't) but that is why Simic Charm is there.. right? Even with a simple Elvish Visionary on board a closet can give you an extra card per turn with no mana cost
February 27, 2013 8:45 p.m.
@omgroflme: There are a few great reasons for the decision. Here are some scenarios:
1) An opponent forces me to sacrifice a creature and my only options are Thragtusk, Deadeye Navigator, and mana generators that I need to hang onto. In response, I flicker Thragtusk and ditch the token while gaining 5 life.
2) I tap out on an attack and I either get lost in the Fog or I just don't win that turn. My opponent retaliates. When he declares attackers, I flicker both the Navigator and whatever he's paired with; in addition to benefiting from any ETB abilities (Craterhoof Behemoth would be hilarious in this situation), I get two huge blockers at instant speed.
3) My opponent wipes the entire board with Terminus. In response I can blink Thragtusk, Elvish Visionary, or Prime Speaker Zegana (repeatedly, if necessary) to fill my hand and gain life on their ways out.
4) Deadeye Navigator allows me to chump block with any of my creatures and spare them all combat damage, if I so desire. (Given enough mana in the right colors, I can conceivably flicker enough times to pair with each individual creature and prevent damage to them all in a single combat.)
5) Deadeye Navigator allows me to make use of more than one flicker effect per turn. On T5 I can blink my T1 Arbor Elf so that it returns to play with +1/+1 counters from my T3 Master Biomancer and still perform any of the tricks listed above.
6) Conjurer's Closet cannot protect itself. If my opponent mainboards artifact/enchantment removal like Naturalize or Sundering Growth, Deadeye renders them essentially useless. Murder he can dodge.
Amazingly, there are more scenarios I can come up with off the top of my head that illustrate the Navigator's incredible flexibility, but I don't want to be annoying. Suffice to say, at the same CMC I can probably justify including one Closet and retain a few Deadeyes--but even then I think the creature has greater versatility.
Simic Charm is in my deck for a multitude of reasons--especially for protecting an unpaired Navigator the turn before I drop a bomb on him, or to save a creature not paired with the Navigator when I don't have 2UU available to flicker, re-bond, then flicker again.
February 27, 2013 9:01 p.m.
You are not getting annoying dont worry, i know how good this creature is but its issue (and you probably know it) is that it is a creature and creatures tend to die easy. Bombs like those either get counterspelled or destroyed when you first cast em and you are tapped out.
Closet is a nightmare for midrange decks, that along with thragtusk has given me 2 top 4 at gp trials destroying jund and dark/blue naya decks. Most decks dont utilize artifact destruction, only jund runs some Abrupt Decays which cant reach it. And simic charm gives all your permanents hexproof so you can dodge the possibly 2 sideboard cards opponents might have.
Long story short, i liked the "why not both" :p (you can always playtest and see if it worths it)
How has Rancor played for you?
Oh and a last tip. Gyre Sage is much better in here than Somberwald Sage
February 27, 2013 9:25 p.m.
@omgroflme: I can see tossing one Conjurer's Closet into the deck and maybe two more in the sideboard, but I don't want to put all of my eggs in one basked when the frailer option is so insanely versatile. Given that I can cast a third-turn Navigator and my deck can produce great turnouts without him, I'm willing to chance that I'll keep him in play fairly frequently. The Closet is no less vulnerable to counterspells, though.
Rancor is probably the least critical card in this deck, since I routinely drop early-game bombs in play testing--but the truth is that I haven't played this deck against anyone yet. So far I've been working on refining it conceptually before risking public humiliation. I actually tend to throw Rancor on Master Biomancer, depending on what I'm holding, because that makes Thragtusk, Garruk, Primal Hunter, and Prime Speaker Zegana really nasty when they hit. (Hell, it makes Arbor Elf a 5/5 for G, even without Elvish Archdruid.) This deck can probably get by just fine without trample, honestly.
I was considering Gyre Sage myself earlier today, actually. I think I'll give that a shot after all. The problem is that until it evolves at least three times, it won't produce nearly the same amount of mana in as short a timeframe. I can't use Somberwald Sage to flicker Deadeye Navigator, but I can use it to summon him on T3 even if I don't draw an Elvish Archdruid. Gyre Sage is nearly a dead draw in the same circumstance. It's give and take, really.
February 27, 2013 10:16 p.m.
jimmyjangles says... #6
Hey I have been watching the deck over the last few days and I like where it is right now. The Rancor was not doing a ton for the deck but having in Spell Rupture is very strong. I was wondering what your thoughts are on having to counter something since Spell Rupture seems more for once your set up wouldn't Dispel do the exact same thing but help early as well. I guess it depends on what you want to counter Spell Rupture seem better when wanting to stop something scary from happening where Dispel is better against a deck where they are countering your scary stuff. Just some thoughts but I agree with having some form of countering in the deck.
February 28, 2013 2:40 a.m.
@jimmyjangles: Yeah, a deck that can drop huge, scary creatures on T3 and maintain momentum (assuming I protect my mana dorks) can probably overwhelm its opponent without trample damage. At least I hope it can.
Like you, I felt some form of countering was a safer bet--and Spell Rupture is just awesome here. The way I see it, against something like Esper Planeswalker control decks I'd want to sideboard in Dispel as additional backup: Spell Rupture takes out PWs and Dispel counters their countermagic. In most situations I think Spell Rupture should be enough.
It's also worth noting that Dispel won't touch Bonfire of the Damned, Mutilate, Blasphemous Act, Devastation Tide, Revenge of the Hunted, Entreat the Angels, and many other problematic spells that could screw my whole game if they resolve. (A single Pillar of Flame could set my mana production back tremendously by T3.) There's definitely a place for both, depending on what my opponent is running.
February 28, 2013 8:13 a.m.
caseykinghenderson says... #8
totally amazing Temporal Mastery maybe? mane board Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and call it a day. can you help with my decks plz?
February 28, 2013 7:17 p.m.
@caseykinghenderson: Temporal Mastery has some merit, but I'm not sure that I'll need it once I'm on a roll. It seems kind of "win more" to me, given the turnouts this deck can generate--and I think I'd rather be able to wipe my opponent's board with Cyclonic Rift. I have Tamiyo, the Moon Sage in my sideboard because it will help stave off slower control decks; against anything aggro-y or mid-range I'm almost certainly better off with Garruk, Primal Hunter since he can produce 3/3s as early as T3 for 0 mana, and if I drop him after Master Biomancer they'll be 5/5s or bigger.
I'd love to fit one more Craterhoof Behemoth in here, but what would you suggest that I cut for it? The only thing I'm seeing that's really viable without deconstructing my theme is 1x Cyclonic Rift, which I consider a 7 CMC card since I virtually never cast it without Overload. I guess I could run it both ways and see what happens.
I'll try to give some constructive feedback to you soon. Thanks for your thoughts.
February 28, 2013 8:30 p.m.
Hi, I've test your deck and it's awesome. Loved it <3 I would recommend 2 copies of Cavern of Souls to make sure your Elf especially Master Biomancer / your Beast Craterhoof Behemoth, Thragtusk drop safely. And also 2 copies of Tree of Redemption on sideboard to defend against agro speed especially Boros Reckoner the tree can be combo with Master Biomancer too, so you can get extra life :) Btw how to deal with Supreme Verdict? Need your advice, thanks
March 1, 2013 10:47 p.m.
if i were you, i would try to fit in one more navigator, he's pretty op and can turn the game around, as you have mentioned multipletimes
March 2, 2013 1:29 p.m.
Snatcharelli says... #13
Vorapede could be the answer to Supreme Verdict,having a couple undying creatures to stay on the board.
March 2, 2013 8:36 p.m.
@Everyone: I'm making some changes here based on my FNM experience with this deck last night. I'll post a detailed update about that later, up above. If you see this thing deckcycled in the next few days, please stop in and see what's new. Thank you.
March 2, 2013 9:04 p.m.
OrgasmAndTea says... #15
I don't understand the Avacyn's Pilgrim....?
Also, during playtesting against super fast aggro decks, decks like Double Strike Holocaust, sometimes I feel you get aggro'd.
Love the deck though, might make a variant myself. Have you considered Power Rangers Megazords, I mean Biomass Mutation?
March 3, 2013 4:17 a.m.
@OrgasmAndTea: Avacyn's Pilgrim is just one more cheap option for minor mana acceleration (and if Master Biomancer is on the battlefield he's a 3/3 for G). If I don't draw an Elvish Archdruid but I have a Pilgrim and an Arbor Elf it still enables third-turn Thragtusk, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, etc.
Once in a while I'll draw an otherwise solid hand that has an Arbor Elf and a Hinterland Harbor but no Forest or Breeding Pool. I'll occasionally keep these because I can drop the Elf on T2 and topdeck one of my 13 Forests quickly pretty. Without a Forest Arbor Elf is a useless 1/1; Avacyn's Pilgrim will always provide that mana boost. (In fact, this is exactly what cost me my first game against my Boros opponent in R5 of FNM: I played a T2 Arbor Elf but my only source of G for several turns was a single Hinterland Harbor. In this situation Avacyn's Pilgrim would have been strictly better.)
If you're unconvinced, here's a list of cards in the deck and sideboard that will benefit from even a slight colorless boost: Master Biomancer, Acidic Slime, Thragtusk, Vorapede, Deadeye Navigator, Conjurer's Closet, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Cyclonic Rift. I think the Pilgrim will make a difference, and if not, I'll nix it.
I have considered Biomass Mutation but I'm not sure that it has a home here. It seems a little "win more" to me. I guess it could be solid against aggro in particular, turning all of my mana dorks into 6/6 blockers on T4, but for the same cost I could just as easily Cyclonic Rift the entire army back into my opponent's hand. Against control I'd rather run countermagic and Simic Charm to protect my creatures.
March 3, 2013 4:46 a.m.
You have enough ramp. Why not implement Alchemist's Refuge? You could easily wait for a tap-out and flash your creatures in.
March 3, 2013 1:31 p.m.
Wolfsage13 says... #18
I love this deck!!!!!! I made a few modifications to it by adding white for Restoration Angel, Rhox Faithmenders, and Rest in Peace. I also threw Curse of Echoes into the side board (I'm not sure if that will be effective, but it sounded amusing to have out on turn 3/4). rhox faithmender should take care of those pesky paladins, and red deck wins in general. Thank you so much for posting this, I've been wanting to do something with simic for a while now =)
March 3, 2013 3:21 p.m.
@Ertl: The main reason I'm not sold on that otherwise excellent idea is that I run only 22 land in a two-color deck that contains numerous cards with double or triple colored mana requirements. I feel like I'd either have to cut my colored mana base back dangerously to run two Alchemist's Refuge, or my Avacyn's Pilgrim--and preliminary play testing has shown that the Pilgrim is every bit as useful as I'd hoped it would be, off-color or not.
@Wolfsage13: I'm thrilled that you enjoy it so much; thank you for such positive feedback. Truthfully, the last few days have been disheartening for me because I've received very little feedback and even fewer upvotes. I kind of figured that the deck I'm proudest of was going to go unnoticed and underrated.
I owe you a huge thumbs up for Curse of Echoes, by the way, and I'll be adding it into my own sideboard in a minute. That card, played on T3, would absolutely demolish an Esper control deck. Exiling Dissipate for free? Copying Sphinx's Revelation and still being allowed to Dispel my opponent's? Sign me up!
March 3, 2013 3:56 p.m.
Wolfsage13 says... #20
hell yes. I'm also considering Deathrite Shaman as a possible replacement for Rest in Peace. it can steal deal with reanimator, and it helps build the mana base for archdruid.
What are your thoughts on Yeva, Nature's Herald; I feel it might be hard to find a spot for her, but she would give the same refuge effect, and drop a "4/4" on the field.
March 3, 2013 4:20 p.m.
Wolfsage13 says... #21
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/quad-core-multi-tusking/ this is what I have so far (we might have a few discrepancies on the white splash ;P)
March 3, 2013 4:27 p.m.
@Wolfsage13: At the moment I honestly don't have the opportunity to look your deck over, but I'll get back to it later. Personally, I'd like to run Yeva, Nature's Herald, but it's hard to justify with Master Biomancer at the 4 CMC slot and so many pivotal cards occupying the 5 and 6 spots, respectively. She's got merit, but I think there are more powerful options.
Deathrite Shaman could be a respectable replacement for my two Elvish Visionary. Against control and in conjunction with Acidic Slime he could exile lands to fuel my mana base, and he'd totally screw Snapcaster Mage. I can see myself running them in here.
March 3, 2013 4:32 p.m.
Wolfsage13 says... #23
yeah i tried to drop the curve a bit, I've liked the closet, but I've always felt it was a little too expensive if you couldnt get the early drops to work with it. I really want to see you get all three of those curses off in one game ;P I put one of those in side, and 2 shamans. how has Tamy been behaving, I always felt like she hicuped when it came to aggro, and never quite had enough of an impact vs control
March 3, 2013 4:47 p.m.
Wolfsage13 says... #24
-1 Cyclonic Rift+1 AEtherizeor at least throw one in side board, should give that extra edge against pesky silverblades
meecht says... #1
TzarChasm, I wish I could like your comment...
February 27, 2013 3:39 p.m.