Fight to the Death or Honorable Passage for Sunforger?

Several of my Wincons are "kill them with their stuff" cards. I had considered Honorable Passage, but I am not sure that the situational nature of the retaliation damage would be enough. I am still considering it, though. As far as Fight to the Death is concerned, this may be good, I will have to test. Given that one of my goals is to kill them with their own stuff, I would rather that they just continued to beat each other in a multiplayer FFA than kill their stuff. If I can keep them attacking each other and not me, keeping their stuff around can be beneficial for when I want to beat them with it. Both are good suggestions, and will be in the lineup for testing. They are definitely good Sunforger targets. Thanks for the comment.

Kaya, Chandra, Commander's Sphere, Mind's Eye, Serra Ascendant, and Marchessa's Decree are out. Aside from Serra Ascendant, they were underperforming, and Serra Ascendant was considered unfair in my meta. Solitary Confinement, Necropotence, Wheel of Fortune, Kazuul, Selfless Squire, and Mortify are in.

Looking to increase the cards that either discourage attacks against me or come as surprise swings, as well as trim some things that were underperforming.

Out:

Assemble the Legion - Too slow. I want turnaround wins. This doesn't do that, and places a target on my head. May need to add another wincon though.

Chaos Warp - Finding I don't play it when I have it. Taking away their options is often counter to the strategy of this deck. Leaving them to overcommit or develop, while laying low myself, leads to my opponents taking each other out. My offense is often letting their offense develop and be used against everyone but me. When I do choose to intervene in their development, I want it to be final, with no upside for them. This is counter to that.

Oblation - Same as Chaos Warp.

Isochron Scepter - Many times a dead draw, and when it comes into play it is less impactful than I want. It also creates too much worry over my board state any time I play it. Counter to my strategy.

Silence - Not the impact I was hoping. Proactive counter does not work the way I wanted. I want turnaround after their deck does what it is supposed to, not just delaying their playing their deck.

Wild Ricochet - Many times a dead draw, many times too expensive, rarely as impactful as I wanted.

Lapse of Certainty - I often let things through because I want them to be used against my opponents, I don't want a target on my head, and I want to use those things against their controllers. I sit on this card too much.

Foreboding Ruins - Almost always an ETB tapped dual with no upside. I can do better.

Secluded Steppe - ETB tapped plains that I rarely Cycle. No combos to take advantage of it.

In:

Temple of Malice - Upside that Foreboding Ruins didn't have.

Temple of Triumph - Replaces Secluded Steppe. Still ETB tapped, but now a dual and with an extra upside of Scry instead of Cycle.

Mystifying Maze - Another Maze. Leads to attacking elsewhere or to overcommitting. Encouraging both is exactly what this deck wants.

Gossamer Chains - Essentially another Maze.

Gift of Estates - Smoothing out the early game, ensuring land drops.

Karmic Justice vs. Martyr's Bond - I will cycle both. Redirecting targeted removal at my opponents would be good. Adding the chump block Rattlesnake of Martyr's Bond may or may not make up for the extra cost.

Some combination of Fogs such as:

• Angelsong - Fog with Cycling

• Awe Strike - Single target Fog with Reverse Damage

• Batwing Brume - Punishing Fog. Perfectly in line with this deck

• Darkness - Black Fog

• Ethereal Haze - Fog not restricted to combat damage

• Holy Day - White Fog

• Kami of False Hope - For on a stick

• Pay No Heed - Single target Fog that also works on non-creature damage

• Pollen Lullaby - Fog with a Sleep effect tacked on

• With a reputation for having these cards, it may encourage attacks elsewhere, and add a level of bluffing into this deck to increase the table politics. Not sure which I will like best, but I plan to cycle through them to see.

May Consider:

Academy Rector - Just a simple Rattlesnake tied to a tutor. Would potentially be great.

False Prophet - Another Rattlesnake card tied to a boardwipe. May be counter to the strategy, but the Rattlesnake may be worth it.

Out:

Abeyance - I had hoped that it would be a semi Timewalk. It was not.

In:

Awe Strike - Another Fog

Doing some editing of the description.

Out:

Norn's Annex

Phyrexian Arena

In:

Ophiomancer

Duelist's Heritage

Out:

Hissing Miasma

In:

Slumbering Dragon

I have been rethinking my wincons recently, my ramp, as well as my average CMC. I have realized that some of the most powerful cards in the deck are the ones that are not in every other pillow fort deck, but that end up accomplishing the same things in the end, and that my wins are often very explosive, not grindy with my big beaters. Many of my best cards are low CMC, and consistent land drops with moderate ramp, as well as hitting my curve is at least as important as, if not more important, than collecting a huge mana base. I need early mana, consistent drops and curve, and a low profile.

For wincons, I ditched Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, I am considering ditching Rune-Scarred Demon, and I am considering ditching Vengeful Pharaoh. Each of them can close a game, each of them pulls double duty in the deck, accomplishing the goals of the deck while also providing a relatively big beater, but all cost a ton. I want to reduce my average CMC, and these are some of my biggest costs. I am trialing Slumbering Dragon, but I think it will end up being more of a rattle snake card and a spot removal decoy than anything, so I am not sure I will ever see it as a wincon. Selfless Squire has done great things in this deck, and I am putting my Serra Ascendant back in. I was harassed about it, but as long as people run things like Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Tooth and Nail, and infinite combos, they have little room to talk. I put in Acidic Soil for a wincon, and have high hopes of closing many late games that way. I also put in Kambal, Consul of Allocation as anti-spellslinger and anti-infinite combo tech with a small lifegain element to make my Necropotence and Acidic Soil safer closers. I am worried that the Kambal, Consul of Allocation may end up drawing hate, but we shall see. I think it will be a better choice than Kaya, Ghost Assassin was and have the same function in the deck.

I have also discovered that there are many cards that function just as well, if not better, as pillow fort cards as the traditional pillow forts. I removed Norn's Annex, I removed Hissing Miasma. I added in Ophiomancer, Slumbering Dragon, High Priest of Penance, Gossamer Chains, and Duelist's Heritage. I am also considering Vampire Nighthawk for similar reasons, but with the added benefit of small and incremental lifegain. None of these says that the opponents can't attack. Each just shifts the cost/benefit analysis of the choice of attacks away from me. I find that telling people what to do is less effective than just making the best move not to attack me, even if they could freely choose to. I am looking forward to playtesting to see how this theory holds up.

Duelist's Heritage has proven pretty good so far. Early drop that can double up an attacker on each turn that I only activate if the attacker is pointed away from me. With a goal of taking advantage of the power of my opponents to wear each other down, helping that out from the early game seems to be working well enough, and does shift that cost/benefit balance toward attacking my opponents. The only issue I have is that they work well for me combined with my creatures, the bigger the better, and I am considering removing my biggest creatures. Deathtouch does combine well, but as a wincon, I would like to come up with some that synnergize well with Duelist's Heritage. I am open to suggestions on big body creatures that are very efficient and synnergize with my deck. I am considering Hunted Horror or Erebos, God of the Dead. Hunted Horror will give my opponents something to beat each other with, but it will also provide them with blockers for the horror, and that is not great. Also, I am not sure I need that level of efficiency, given that I want to lay low until I can win. I may playtest. Erebos, God of the Dead is an efficient big body, hard to kill, and comes with two abilities that could be useful in the deck. Either or both of these may work out well.

Another card with promise for this deck is Woolly Razorback. It functions as a big wall, and turns into an under-costed beater if people attack me, adding to the Pillow Fort theme. I might have to test.

Another card I am looking at is Hatred. An out of nowhere win off a small attacker, especially my commander, may be just what I am looking for. If people know it is a possibility, they may be forced to block a deathtouch creature and lose some resources. Swingy wins work well for this deck, and I may have to playtest.

Great deck! I see you are keeping your average Cmc low. 2 cheap cards that work great in my deck are Righteous Aura and Luminarch Ascension. My problem with the ascension usually is that opponents will attack just so I don't get enough quest counters. However in a pillow fort, it's incredibly easy to get the counters. An army of 4/4 flying angels quickly turns into a win condition.

Righteous Aura provides more protection from infect or commander damage.

I normally don't advocate cutting lands. However with a deck way below 3 cmc, I think you can cut a couple lands to make room for other cards. Just a thought.

Oh, and Maze of Ith is wonderful. The Eternal Masters version isn't very expensive

Thanks for the comments.

Luminarch Ascension - Low CMC, good army that can end the game, but it always draws hate, and it slow enough that it doesn't just win when played. It runs counter in some ways to how this deck works, and really the entire strength of this deck is playing the Survivor reality TV style game. Lay low, contribute to the game in ways that others appreciate, be able to survive a backstab, be able to backstab when necessary, and when it gets to the end, be able to make fire quickly. Luminarch Ascension doesn't do this.

Righteous Aura - My meta hates Circle of Protection, and I think that this is too close to that. My sound funny, given other cards in this deck, but any Circle effect would draw a ton of hate.

Maze of Ith - It is in there, you just missed it because it is not listed as a land. It is in my Pillow Fort section. Since I have been playing since 1994, my Maze is a well loved Dark version. My land is only for things that contribute to my mana base. Maze doesn't, so it is placed into the correct category by effect.

I could go down a land, given average CMC. I may try that, and add another card. Testing may prove if that is a good option. I do like a low land count, and low CMC, given it works great to ditch lands to Scroll Rack, and Acidic Soil likes me to have way fewer lands than my opponents. Going down a land may not hurt at all, but I don't want to ruin the early game consistency of hitting all my land drops. That is why I like all the Land Tax effects.

I like your approach to Marchesa! I had not really considered her as a commander until now since my main squeeze is currently Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. I find myself turning a little more toward a control mindset in the decks I am building because it takes a little more patience than a beater deck. I love your description for this build! +1 from me sir. If you have a moment, I would like your input on my decks.

How does Vampire Nighthawk perform in here? I've thought about including him as a flying version of Ophiomancer but wonder if he'd be a bit too vanilla?

UnleashedHavok, thanks for the feedback. There is nothing really special about Queen Marchesa, and that it actually why she is great in this deck. There are a lot of people who like her, and a lot of ways to build her, and none of them are standout powerful, making her pretty good at flying under the radar. Her colors are great, and if ignored, either her card draw of her assassin tokens can be quite nice. There were a bunch of Tariel, Reckoner of Souls decks with similar goals out there when I started looking, none had the Sunforger package that I added, and when helmed by Tariel, you sit there with a slower commander that just screams big threat, making a low profile much harder. I think this archetype is significantly strengthened by using Queen Marchesa instead. I also made my Pillow Fort/Rattle Snake package much more subtle as well as cheaper, making it more effective for this deck. I struggle sometimes with the fact that there are no reset buttons in this deck, but that makes play really interesting, and makes my wins that much more spectacular. I can't chicken out and reset. I keep it all on the down low, and then the retaliation if outstanding when it happens. The closest thing to a reset that I had for a while was Comeuppance, and I actually took that out so that I would stop using it, even if it served a purpose occasionally. I am looking for some single card game on the spot game winners for some common board states, with a good example being Acidic Soil, and I welcome any suggestions, but even if I don't come up with anything, it seems to be working exactly how I want it to right now. Again, thank you for the upvote and feedback. I will look at your decks to see what I can contribute.

MegaMatt13, not sure yet, still testing and haven't even drawn it yet. I will let you know, but that was exactly my thought, plus the addition of lifegain as a cushion. I have a lot of optimism about it.

MegaMatt13, I wish Bitterblossom tokens had Deathtouch. Vampire Nighthawk is a worse substitute.

I just added Hatred and dropped a Plains. I think Hatred has some serious swing victory potential, it combines well with a few Lifelink creatures I have, it combines well with small Deathtouchers because people are hesitant to block them, and it combines well with Delirium and Backlash to avoid combat altogether and is this deck's version of Fling/Brion Stoutarm, as well as speeding up when those cards could become relevant. Vampire Nighthawk is nice for an extra 6-10 life a game when used offensively, and Hatred on a Deathtouch, Lifelink, evasive small creature is very nice.

Three games tonight. Omnath, Locus of Mana vs Queen Marchesa vs very aggressive Adriana, Captain of the Guard. Game 1 slow start to mana screw, run down by Omnath. Game 2 Delirium to Omnath's dome followed by a Sunforger/Queen Marchesa commander damage beatdown backed up by aggressive use of control cards for the win by about turn 10 or so. Game 3, Turn 2 Signet, Turn 3 Serra Ascendant, Turn 4 Hatred to take out Omnath, Turn 7 got my Serra Ascendant Zealous Conscripts'd and Breath of Fury'd, which I then Selfless Squired for a 10/10 and canceling the possibility of sacrificing my Serra Ascendant, and then dropped Duelist's Heritage. Game closed quickly thereafter. Amazing draws, was super aggressive compared to normal, but the deck supported it. This was basically my entire aggression suite, but it was fun and surprising to all. Rad.

Also thinking about making room for Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a way to possibly combat countermagic, given that the big swings that win me games can be disrupted so easily by counters, leaving me with nothing. Never played with it much. Anyone with opinions?

Out:

Smoldering Marsh

Plains

In:

Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Temple of Silence

Changed the manabase some. I found that without blue or green in the deck, Exotic Orchard was effectively colorless or a single applicable color a lot of the time, and needed a change. The Tainted duals (Tainted Field, Tainted Peak) were good, but also ended up being colorless lands a lot. I also had a realization that I don't need a ton of land with this deck, and keeping lands in my hand helps to keep the illusion that I am about to fog or something. I then use the lands for Scroll Rack and draw a bunch, shuffling them away with various effects. I also noted how cool it is to cut my lands in play without cutting my mana options by dropping Lotus Vale. This helps with all my Land Tax effects, and helps with Acidic Soil. When I realized this, I figured that I wanted some good mana fixing with lands that drop my land count on the battlefield. I then decided to add the Ravnica Karoo lands and Gemstone Mine. We will see if this does anything bad for my available mana while at the same time increasing the available lands in hand for Scroll Rack, as well as limits the number of lands to optimize my Land Tax and Acidic Soil effects. Now for playtesting.

Another game tonight. Queen Marchesa vs Adriana, Captain of the Guard vs Omnath, Locus of Mana vs Rashmi, Eternities Crafter. Omnath came out strong and my Duelist's Heritage allowed him to take out the other two opponents without any issue, first Raskmi, then Adriana. The turn he took out Adriana, my retaliation with Dread pumped with the Duelist's Heritage and Marchesa pumped with Boros Charm brought him down low enough that an Acidic Soil finished him off for 10 damage to my 6 damage to bring me to 38. Worked exactly like it was supposed to.

Massive update recently to the deck description. I made it thorough enough that I think it qualifies for the hub Primer. I welcome feedback on the description as well as the card choices.

Of particular interest to me right now is in adding notable card exclusions. These are conspicuously absent. Please feel free to comment on things you find surprising that are absent, and I will either consider them for the deck or consider them for notable exclusions.

Thanks to all those who have helped out, and thanks ahead of time to those willing to continue to help.

This is absolutely my favorite way to play EDH and I am so happy that other people are trying out this strategy with Queen Marchesa. I also have been referencing Rachmiel's Tariel primer for my own Queen Marchesa Aikido deck so its great to see you list it as an influence.

I've found that this style of deck, in being reactive, often will leave a lot of mana untapped. Some of the best way to utilize that unused mana I've found are cards like Erebos, God of the Dead and Greed for card draw, and mana storage like Gemstone Array. It is also because of this that I'm curious how well Citadel of Pain has been working for you, as it would seem that much of this deck wants to play at instant speed. I included Vedalken Orrery in mine to help mitigate the problem as well.

This is a beautiful primer to this deck style and I look forward to testing some of these cards in my own build, as well as continuing to develop this archetype for Marchesa.

I have considered both Erebos, God of the Dead and Greed as they seem to fit well. I have what feels like a very tight list, and have not figured out how to work them in. I find that they would enhance what I am doing, but are not necessary. Citadel of Pain has been a great grind out or outright game ender for the games that it has been in there. I run a low land count, I have several lands that help to trim the number I have in play, and I have lots of things that either limit life loss or regain life. I do have a few mana sinks in the form of Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack, which can also limit land overload and turn lands in hand into useable cards. Even with all this, I am very conscious of how many lands I play. The deck runs well on about 5-7 mana, and with a Lotus Vale or Boros Garrison and a few Rocks, I can get there with sometimes 3 lands. I play lands early to build a board state, exchange normal lands for more efficient lands, drop some rocks, then hold lands to bluff with or Scroll Rack away. I often can drop Citadel of Pain to a very asymmetrical board state, then allow them to overcommit to stay under it as much as possible, and punish them for it. Sometimes this can also mean going aggressive with removal to open up anattack with a beater, using my removal in a very no reactive way. I have been surprised how well I can get aggressive when I want to, using my typically defensive cards like Backlash or Pacification Array to facilitate my offense.

I also noticed that you took out Phyrexian Arena which has been very helpful for me to maintain hand size when not the Monarch. Do you feel like you get enough card advantage from just maintaining the crown without an additional card engine? I do see that you have Necropotence in this list.