Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 749 | 913 COMMENTS | 208035 VIEWS | IN 387 FOLDERS
precociousapprentice says... #2
Actually, let's explore this for a moment. Necropotence vs. Phyrexian Arena.
Phyrexian Arena nets you 2 cards per turn for 1 life. Necropotence will net 2 cards per turn for 2 life. Phyrexian Arena wins if the smallest amount of cards possible are drawn. The difference is that Necropotence can draw way more cards. Way more. You can use it to refill to 7 cards every turn, and you keep a full hand. I sometimes use it this way. This is OK. Combine this with a lifelink creature and you get a semi-Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Not too bad. The real difference is seen when you draw 20 cards, to dig for an answer. Then it becomes a Tutor and a Wheel all at once. Sure, you sap your life, but when you need it, you can go get it. Those big swings are how it is used best, and result in really exciting wins. Phyrexian Arena can't do that, no matter how much value you can gain over time. This deck is less about value over time, and more about coming out of nowhere to bring the fire, preferably by having exactly the right answer or wincon, based on what we are facing. People even enjoy losing to this deck when it wins in spectacular ways. Necropotence swings games. Phyrexian Arena doesn't.
February 7, 2017 7:47 p.m.
Simplyafish says... #3
I would say, in favor of Necropotence, that its ability to let you control your life/cards in hand as a resource so fully is worth the extra life loss, especially if you can press an opening into a game-winning advantage.
Do you find that your ramp cards press you into a plains-heavy build, or that the deck already prioritizes plains as its main color? I build on a little more of a budget so for someone who can't really afford Zendikar fetches or original duals, how would you advise adjusting the mana? Do the bounce lands and Lotus Vale handle that issue mostly for you?
February 9, 2017 2:24 a.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #4
I'm going to chime in here. I have never understood the awesome-ness of Necropotence, but after seeing ya'lls conversation it makes more seems. What I don't get is this; if you need an answer immediately, how does Necropotence help? I mean, you can dig for 20 card and get a great answer. But now it's your opponent's turn and he just saw you frantically digging, AND you are down 20 life.
February 9, 2017 7:18 a.m.
precociousapprentice says... #5
Dig for answers that can end the game or an answer to losing a game. And you don't need to go for 20 every time. It is just a possibility. I never liked Necropotence until this deck. I can be within striking distance, need an attack, and search out Backlash, Delirium, Rakdos Charm, etc... and turn his wincon into a loss. I especially like it with Angel's Grace in hand. Dig for a huge amount, put yourself within striking distance of his big beater, Angel's Grace, then counterattack while he is tapped out. It is also nice when sitting behind a Solitary Confinement. Without it, you both are waiting for the card to break up the stalemate. With Necropotence, you dig for a huge amount, trying to win the race to the wincon. I guess that is how I see it. When it is a race to find the right card to win, Necropotence is like nitrous.
As for the Land Tax effect and plains question, I already leaned plains, so the addition was not a problem. Those effects are in there for two purposes. First, to ensure I hit all my early land drops, and it gives me a little card advantage early, along with some fixing. It is not really ramp, but missing land drops is anti-ramp, so it is almost the same thing. It is the closest thing to I can get in this deck, it is a lower threat level than actual ramp, and for a reactive deck, it works pretty well. The second purpose is to combine with Scroll Rack later for a card advantage engine. Not a world shaking combo, but at least I can get some late game advantage out of them, and Land Tax each turn with a Scroll Rack out is a pretty huge advantage.
The Ravnica bounce lands and Lotus Vale are interesting. I have never wanted to run them in any other deck, but this one loves them. They allow me to keep a low land count on the battlefield, while evolving my manabase during the game to a high quality manabase, and can also feed my Scroll Rack. I usually get one of them early, and I put it into play as soon as possible, since I am not usually doing a ton on my first couple turns. I then put out a few more lands and I can usually still hit Queen Marchesa on time. As the game unfolds, I drop the others when it doesn't negatively affect me, and by late game when I want to hit them with Acidic Soil or Citadel of Pain, they get hurt much worse than me. I have been thinking about Price of Progress, even with my large nonbasic count because of the synergy and efficiency of my manabase. I trade tempo for efficiency and some card advantage, and set myself up for a big symmetrical bomb that I have made asymmetrical. Since my deck wants to lay low early and have power to react later, the early tempo loss is not a huge deal breaker.
For budget options, you could think about cheaper fetches. There are a ton, even though we get hung up on the Zendicar and Khans fetches, the loss of tempo in a casual meta is not a huge thing, especially for this deck. If you keep the Land Tax cards, keeping enough plains to make them all work is important. I like about 2 targets per fetch and another 1 target per Land Tax effect. The any colored lands and bounce lands are helpful, but are for a parallel purpose.
February 9, 2017 8:05 a.m.
precociousapprentice says... #6
Just a minor update after some play. There is a Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck in my meta. Not an overpowering beast, and fun and exciting to play against. Just a fair and fun casual deck that is great to have in our meta. The player of that deck expressed frustration at the ability of Rest in Peace to totally hose that deck. So I am adjusting the list slightly to compensate. A goal of this deck is to win, but only in ways that are fun for everyone, even those I beat. I want to maintain the deck's ability to punish graveyard antics, but I realized that Rest in Peace is a little out of character for this deck. I want cards that punish as many archetypes as possible, but not shut them down completely. I want to punish overcommitting to a strategy, and exploit the strengths of each opponent, not shut down any deck. I typically just want to do damage to them for pursuing their strategy, not just shut it down. I replaced Rest in Peace with Grave Consequences for the time being, but may look for cards that punish playing cards from the graveyard, not just punish those with lots of cards in the graveyard. I am happy to take suggestions.
I also changed Reverberate to Increasing Vengeance, since I won't be removing my graveyard anymore. I will think about adding Past in Flames as well, just to see how it works out. We shall see.
February 12, 2017 1:02 p.m.
Simplyafish says... #7
I like the switch to Grave Consequences. I too have a Meren deck in my Meta that can get a little oppressive once in a while, and this seems like a great addition that doesn't end their game plan completely.
For Increasing Vengeance, since it only copies a spell you control, is the flashback cost worth the benefit of not being able to use your copy effect on an opponent's spell? You need to pair it with another game-turning card in your hand, but I've found that Reverberate can swing things just on its own, as a reaction. I also personally love Wild Ricochet, but I see that with your tight low mana base it might be just a tad too much.
February 12, 2017 6:37 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #8
I had Wild Ricochet in at one time. It was good, but not CMC good, at least for this deck. I originally had Reverberate in for exactly what you are saying. I almost exclusively used it to copy my own game ending spell. As a consequence, I ignored some opportunities to use it for less than game ending circumstances. I never replaced it with Increasing Vengeance because I was always afraid it would disappear to Rest in Peace. I want to try it out now, to see if I can get some extra value out of it, or see if the loss of flexibility in being able to copy an opponent's spell will be worth it. I feel like I am just as likely to put Reverberate back in as to keep it the way it is. We shall see. As far as I see it, you have correctly assessed the situation, and play testing will see if it is worth it.
February 12, 2017 7:25 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #9
I am liking this deck more and more. I have been curious, do you think it would be possible to make a functioning budget version of this deck to build on? I don't have much of a collection, and am wondering if I could put one together for about $80. I know that taking out the expensive lands would take a huge chunk out, but there seem to be some staple cards that are still pretty expensive.
February 16, 2017 11:20 a.m.
precociousapprentice says... #10
You could easily make a budget deck that at least functions pretty well. Without the lands, you take most of the price down. It would require a larger land base to be what you needed to curve out, but it would be fine. The tutors make it more consistent, but without them, you drop most of the rest of the price. A few of the others are replaceable. Lesser mana rocks, ditch the Path to Exile, choose some alternate to No Mercy, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Maze of Ith, and just about all the Land Tax type cards. You would obviously decrease consistency, but the price would drop considerably. I would be very interested in seeing your version.
February 16, 2017 4:52 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #11
After some playtesting, I think I went the wrong direction with my latest changes. Grave Consequences was a total waste. The Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck deftly played around it like it wasn't there. Each card he wanted to keep only cost him one life, and the rest of them he just let go. The player appreciated my change, but that was too much. I added Shred Memory and will consider Samurai of the Pale Curtain as an alternate but easier to take out Rest in Peace. I may also try Stonecloaker for repeatable grave hate. I can put in the lesser cards than Rest in Peace because I was asked to play nicer, but expecting to play a crazy graveyard based deck, then asking for people to not play any graveyard hate is a little much. Shred Memory is also an uncounterable tutor for a large number of really important spells, so will never be a dead draw. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is vulnerable to spot removal or wrath effects, so he can play around it if he faces it.
Citadel of Pain in my meta has been less than helpful. There is less of a non-basic land base than some metas, and there are fewer reactive or control decks, so a lot of lands are tapped, and it often gets 2-3 damage per turn, and I get hit as well. Not what I had hoped. I was going to try Price of Progress, but the dominance of 2 color decks makes this of limited value, and I get it worse than most. I may change focus a little with that slot and put in Toil / Trouble. The modal nature of this spell makes it never a dead draw, and hitting someone for a full hand may accomplish the same thing as I had planed for Citadel of Pain, but also expand who I can hit with it. I have also considered Sudden Impact for the same effect, but I want to see if the modal nature of Toil / Trouble makes it more valuable than the instant speed and Sunforger tutorable nature of Sudden Impact. We shall see. Due to the smaller number of control or reactive decks means that Grand Abolisher is less than helpful most of the time, and so may get the axe soon as well.
I am sort of on the fence with Slumbering Dragon. It is hard to tell how much that one is working. It may be, but it actually never works out to be a wincon. It is strictly a Rattlesnake and spot removal bait. We shall see if another wincon catches my eye for playtesting in that slot.
Wheel of Fortune has been one that I find I rarely play when I have it. As a reactive deck, I often have cards that sit in my hand until I find the right time to play them. Wheel of Fortune is counter to the strategy of holding cards for when they will be most effective. I am looking for alternatives if people have suggestions. I want large card draw all at once for little mana that doesn't require me to dump all my cards. Please speak up if you have a suggestion.
I am always looking for amazing wincons that fit the theme of this deck. Cards that attack people for specializing or overreaching with common strategies, things that attack people for doing things that all decks do, or symmetrical damage that is outsized compared to the mana investment. Damage that is not dependent on connecting with an attack is best.
I may also bring in Felidar Sovereign. An alternate wincon is always good to have, and one that supports itself but is also synergistic with the rest of the deck is perfect. Another lifelinker for Hatred is also welcome.
Anyone who sees something I have missed that would fit here should also feel free to suggest things. As people who have followed this deck know, this is an evolving deck. It will continue to evolve as I tune it.
February 16, 2017 5:38 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #12
So I normally forget about the auto-suggestion button, but I hit yours today and think that these cards are some gems; Blessed Reversal, Blaze of Glory, and Fire Covenant. I'm not sure any of them fit the slots you are looking for, but the flavor text of the Reversal is spot on for this deck.
February 16, 2017 8:17 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #13
Those are interesting suggestions. Blessed Reversal seems fun, but it is basically a fog for decks that go wide, but mostly worthless for decks that go tall. In the right circumstances, it is probably great. Blaze of Glory is a nice Fog if you have a creature out, and doubles as a sweeper if it targets a deathtouch creature. I may consider both of these cards, and either could end up as an alternate or sideboard card. Both could be good in the right meta.
I had previously considered Fire Covenant, but it is not quite right. If I could target a player, it would be an auto include. Since it is only good for creatures, I think I can find better alternatives.
February 16, 2017 9:01 p.m.
MegaMatt13 says... #14
Hmm I quite like the sound of blaze of glory. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't marchesa only to be able to kill up to 3 creatures if it targets her. She can only divide up her three power damage on three different blocked creatures
February 16, 2017 10:09 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #15
MegaMatt13, you are right about deathtouch creatures. That makes it even less likely I will include it. Unlike for Arcbond, I am not sure it has the impact necessary. Trample still gets through, you lose a creature, you may be able to take out a couple of creatures, but it does nothing to directly end to game. I feel like a more generic Fog would usually be at least as effective, and Arcbond certainly is.
February 16, 2017 10:18 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #16
I actually suggested the Blaze because you could use it in a lot of different scenarios. And not only on your turn.
February 16, 2017 10:24 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #17
Interesting. Almost like a modal Fog, with an option of spot removal or to pave a way for an attack. I will have to think on that. Thanks for pointing out the obvious, that I don't have to be the beneficiary of the Blaze of Glory to benefit from Blaze of Glory.
February 16, 2017 10:38 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #18
I'm glad you like it. I am currently putting together my list. It will be very rough at first, until I decide how I want to Aikido my opponents. And it will consist of cards I have plus cards I want to get for my collection. I do have a question, how does Godsend feel to you? I feel like it is a threat to the table, but as long as I am not swinging with it I could be left alone.
February 17, 2017 1:41 a.m.
precociousapprentice says... #19
Interesting. It is sort of like adding deathtouch, but exiles instead of destroys it. It is not overly powerful, but I am afraid it would just call attention to me, which is counter to my strategy. I would say it is an OK Rattlesnake, though. Are you making a similar deck, using Godsend? I would be curious to hear how it works.
February 17, 2017 4:23 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #20
I will be, once I finish the bones of my budget build of Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest. I'm really liking him, he's a lot of fun. But yes, I do plan to try Godsend with Queen Marchesa and see whether or not it puts a target on my back. I can see it being intimidating, I'm just curious if I will be left alone if I don't swing with it
February 17, 2017 4:57 p.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #21
As I'm building my deck, I came across these two cards Sudden Spoiling and Imp's Mischief. I had never seen the Mischief before, but it would be a fun way to deal with a board wipe I think. And Sudden Spoiling is one of my favorite black cards. It has saved my ass several times, and could be a great addition to your deck I think.
February 22, 2017 2 a.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #22
Here I am again! lol. Anyway, I thought of two nice lifelink spells that could be finishers for this type of deck..... the only thing is I don't know that they fit your current build since you are trying to punish everyone for over-reaching with lands. Debt to the Deathless and Death Grasp
February 25, 2017 12:22 a.m.
precociousapprentice says... #23
I like both of those, and have considered these for some time, along with Exsanguinate. You are right, though, the required mana make it tough. I have not yet playtested any of these, so it may work better than I think. I actually think that I would probably go with Exsanguinate instead, due to the higher lifegain potential, and it effectively costs the least. I appreciate that you are thinking about this deck and archetype. Cross pollination will potentially open up some interesting options.
Maybe I will playtest with one of these spells to see how they work.
February 25, 2017 7:46 a.m.
UnleashedHavok says... #24
I had not thought about Exsanguinate, I like that card a lot more that Debt to the Deathless!
I do have a question about one of the cards on your Aikido win con list. How would you use Grenzo, Havoc Raiser in that role?
February 25, 2017 12:07 p.m.
precociousapprentice says... #25
Grenzo, Havoc Raiser is basically in a testing spot. It is OK, and will likely be rotated out. It is interesting in that it can be like a backward Pillow Fort card, or punish cards that use topdeck manipulation, including my own Lapse of Certainty, making it a hard counter. In play, it has been less than stellar, and I am realizing that I would rather have a harder control card, a better Pillow Fort or Rattlesnake card, or a stronger wincon. It was fun to explore the steal archetype with this card, but it is becoming more obvious that it is not in line with the deck as much as I want. I will probably try to find another wincon that is also a control or Rattlesnake card to replace it. Maybe I will try Exsanguinate finally.
precociousapprentice says... #1
Necropotence is more swingy, and refills a whole hand at once. I go from not a factor to a huge threat. I get a lot out of that. Same with Wheel of Fortune.
February 7, 2017 7:11 p.m.